Downtown Raleigh’s skyline will change dramatically in the next several years with the addition of new towers, particularly in the southern end. Are you excited?
UPDATE 10/08/2008:
First of the Edison updates:
UPDATE 07/20/2007:
He is an updated version of the future Raleigh Skyline rendering. It reflects a more current version of what we might see in 2008 and beyond.
Closer:
The current version of Raleigh (2006):
The future rendering of Raleigh:
A less cartoony look at the rendering:
Discuss!
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Created
on Sunday, October 29th, 2006 in the category Illustrations.
April 7th, 2008 at 7:49 am
DUH,
Your whole foolish rant is not based on reality. It’s based solely on you wanting a downtown arena. Get real. dude. Getting a downtown arena built in downtown Raleigh in the 1990′s was not in the cards.
April 7th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Urban Spawl defines Raleigh and the rest of the triangle.
Also all the excuses about building the arena on the HWY is just that. No one will go downtown Raleigh if all you have to offer is a place to get drunk. Amazing how folks want to see a spark in DT raleigh growth yet offer excuses on idiotic mistakes that could have served as a catalyst for the DT growth that the Raleigh skyline faithful want and dream about.
April 7th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Dave, of course it was in the cards. The people who were dealing the cards knew that. The most likely best site had already been fingered. The guys just didn’t play their cards. And a great opportunity was wasted. A lot of mayors in a lot of cities have done their jobs and worked to change the perceptions of their constituents. They could see that if they did, it would mean great progress for their cities. That’s called leadership. Building the arena wouldn’t have happened in a vaccuum, and like in many other cities the infrastructure would have come in concert with the arena. There is after all the proposals, approvals, multiple site considerations, the geotechnical and environmenat investigations, the final okay to go forward, the choosing of the site, further subsurface investigations and resulting site improvements, acquiring the land, design, redsigns, construction and the other things I’m sure I left out. It could have happened, and Ernest, I’m not the only one who believes that. Even if “…people at Five points would look down on downtown.” (What?) Also, Ernest, you surely remember the cheer leading you did for the convention center in your own post of some time back. I believe you did include a disclaimer. Rightly so. But you know, at least the thing is being built and not blocked. And I am glad that in the main, you agreed with me. Or in your words, “I totally agree with you on this: ‘Not locating the arena downtown was a terrible decision.’” Wise decision to agree with me. It would have cost millions more downtown, but that would have been pocket change compared to the benefits. We’d be so far ahead now.
April 7th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
first off i do think that fetzer messed up the chance for downtown raleigh to thrive by not putting the arena dt… i have to disagree with you ernest on that one he cannot be compared to meeker because meeker had alotta guts that alot of these other mindless dreamers didnt have. second mongo slade PLEASE DON NOT COME TO THIS SIGHT TALKIN MORE S@#$ ABOUT DT RALEIGH. you charlotte people act like charlotte has always been a vibrant city when it was an even bigger piece of sh@# than raleigh 20 years ago… dont let me start off countin the mistakes that charlotte made! dont get upset because there aint nothin but a bunch of old bankers in dt charlotte after hours i mean lets be for real at least in raleigh there is a mixture crowd out and about at night. the only thing dt raleigh needs is more density by more highrises(PREFERRABLY RESIDENTIAL APTS) and a lucrative amount of hotels… once we get those things along with some developers that have the guts to build some more around the rbc center, than raleigh will be straight. peace!!
April 7th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
http://www.freelon.com/portfolio/256#
This slightly resembles Raleigh…How nice the RBC center would have been downtown… are we really not suited well for an NFL team, MLB team or anything else? I remember reading once that Raleigh was high on the list of cities that could support a major sports team. I dont mind the RBC Center being where it is, let NHL and State have it, use it as something to build around. Bring something better downtown altogether.
April 7th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I will say getting RBC to move its North American HQ from Rocky Mount was a wise move. It is going to take more of that. Old bankers like Hugh McColl did wonders. It takes money/big business to make the bold investments that will spark DT growth. Again just having some bars DT is not going to cut it.
April 7th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Guys, we can agree to disagree, I guess… Mistakes happened. While I do think that not building an arena downtown is a mistake, I only say it with today’s standards. Back then, the decision made a lot of sense. Now, it is very different, as we’ve seen the lack of initiatives not only in the public, but also in the private sector.
As for Meeker being a visionary, let me say this: EVERYONE can envision when spending other people’s money. I like the guy and I think he is doing a good job, but we need to recognize that he found a downtown ALREADY on the move. So far, none of his visions have paid off – it is too early to say, maybe in 10 years from now – as opposed to what took place during the previous mayors, whether you wish to recognize it, or not. Let me give you a couple of areas where Meeker has failed miserably:
1) Plensa’s art proposal. I liked the idea, but not the location. Glad to see that the city council realized that, but why waiting for so long? It was a waste of public money – for studies and demostration – and certainly a waste of the artist’s time and effort.
2) The whole development/construction fees increase. What other mayors managed to do – growth paying for itself – this mayor fails to copy. Read today’s N&O to see the fiasco I am talking about: State law requires that the city has to match the funds it gets from developers for public infrustructure work. That’s right, all this time this was an “unknown factor”. Meeker and those who scream about increasing the fees have found out the downside of their proposal.
I can be a visionary with your tax dollars. Would you vote for me? I will bring you arenas and skyscrapers downtown, and everything else you want. Again, I like this mayor, but there needs to be some balance in the city council, which now doesn’t exist. There must be members who will question the financial aspects of every public project, including great ideas like the City Plaza and the Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center. We need to proceed with strong public-private relations, not begging for help after the decision is made. Mayor Meeker needs to look more into building a strong relationship with the private entities in our downtown, before any major projects break ground. Find ways to get everyone involved after a detailed study is done, not before. To his credit, he knows this is the case with a downtown arena and he is going to proceed in a more conservative fashion. He knows the city cannot over-burden the taxpayers and I truly believe that he will proceed with caution.
One more remark: I am glad to know that we can disagree on some things
If we can find a middle ground for ourselves, I am sure there is hope that future city officials may do the same and actually serve the residents of Raleigh instead of their own agendas. We are definitely on the same page about the needs of our city today, although we have different positions on the past achievements and mistakes.
April 7th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Oh by the way, for the link i put up, click on site to the left…
April 7th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Guys,
Please stop with the ‘back then’ justifications. Every other city in America was moving their arenas downtown at the exact same time that Raleigh leaders electd to stick the RBC Center in a cow pasture. Charlotte, for example was pushing forward with a new downtown arena. Hell, virtually every city in America was pushing for some sort of sports arena downtown. Miami, Memphis, Nashville, Washington, DC, even, Winston-Salem. Detroit built a new baseball stadium in downtown Detroit despite being the murder capital of the US.
Face it Fetzer and Coble were in fact a major part of the visionless leadership that elected to place the arena where it now stands IN SPITE of the fact that most other cities around were actively pursuing downtown facilities to spur economic development.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:56 am
The location was chosen by NC State because they had the land. There would be no “City” arean except for the fact that NCSU wanted to build a facility bigger than what they had funds for. The City gained partial ownership and the ability to get a portion of the profits because they (we) provided 1/2 the funding. As I remember it, there was a lot of opposition, could the city have built anything if they had to raise the whole?
In any event, the city simply bought into the concept of increasing the NC State vision – not creating it. It is not like the City had some great vision of an arena and got it wrong. They didn’t want one and bought in to it because the price was right.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Just one last word on this arena stuff (from me, I mean). I believe it could have happened. I talked to enough people to be awfully sure it could have. I almost said “know” instead of “believe,” but didn’t want to sound pretentious.
But, I will rant no more — neither foolishly, as Dave chastised, or brilliantly, which I choose to believe is the more accurate description of the rant in question, uh, dude (please imagine one of Ernest’s smiley faces here).
Thing is, it didn’t happen. And so though there is an obvious connection, our discussions are straying from The Future Raleigh Skyline’s main thing. Meanwhile, I do respect the comments of the great majority of the regulars who post here their ideas, wish lists, hopes and even their impatience. Ernest is just a plain ol’ warehouse full of information. I appreciate his knowledge and ideas, and wouldn’t want him to think otherwise. Still…woops, never mind. Let us all think tall.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I will have to add that part of the reason Charlotte’s Downtown grew so fast was due in large part to Hugh McColl and to the competition between NCNB/Nationsbank/Bank of America and First Union (now Wachovia). He wanted a large presence downtown and to be the top dog. He had the drive to do it and the ability to convince others that he had a good idea. Once things reached a critical mass, the rest followed. Until we can get someone similar, things will not move as fast here.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Something else I remembered while I was in CHarlotte that I think makes a big difference in the feel of the area is having interstate class higways in teh downtown area. We decided we did not want that 50 years ago and built the Beltline and the perception on dowtown being insulated still remains.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
DUH,
Are you saying the city should have built an arena in downtown, prior to the Whalers looking to leave Hartford, with basically no tenants (Circa 1996 or prior). I guess they could have worked out something with NCSU basketball and their 17 home games. If they did that, it most likely would have been a shabby no frills arena. Like the Charlotte Coleseum. Would have been great for a few years, but would have never attracted a PRO franchise, since the city would not have built fancy luxury boxes back then (with no pro tenant in tow). Also, having no public transportation and very few major road improvements would have made getting in and out for an event one giant cluster f-bomb.
If you are suggesting that the city should have taken over the project of building a downtown arena after the Whalers expressed interest in partnering up with NC State to share an arena, that’s an entire different set of obstacles. Since the site was already picked out on land owned by NC State, the city of Raleigh would have had to convince the frugal citizens of North Carolina to spend close to $300 millions on an arena and downtown improvements. Both NC State and the Whalers/Canes were only willing to pony up a certain amount. I love drinking beer in bars across the street from an arena during pre-game and post game as much as the next guy, but it really would have been difficult to get the financing. The current RBC center is said to have cost around $160 million. That is without land purchase and very minimal infrastructure expeditures. Mass transit and major road work would have been a pre-requisite from the Canes for downtown. You can’t have people (ticketholders) sitting on Hillsborough or Glenwood or Western or Capitial Blvd for an hour or two prior to each event because there is a massive bottleneck in the tight downtown streets. Especially during rush hour.
Also, Glenwood South didn’t exist back then. There were only a few places to go out scattered around downtown: Tir Na Nog, Greenshields, 42nd St, and the Berkley Cafe. Not much else in DT around 1997.
What’s done is done. If the city really wants an arena downtown, they should get mass transit and the roads ready over the next 10 to 15 years. The current building is almost 9 years old. I can’t see the city building a new one until the current one is at least 25 years old. They should start the conversation now.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:03 am
DUH, it’s o.k. for us to evaluate a situation differently. I have no problem saying that certain mayors didn’t have a vision, but I think that we should also recognize that they didn’t harm our city, either. There is a huge list of reasons why our downtown didn’t grow the same way with other areas – it is lame to even compare with what bigger cities did 10, 20, or 30 years ago – but it is my belief that we need to focus on our downtown’s needs for today, as well as tomorrow. I am convinced that even though we disagree about the past, we are all in agreement about the direction. 10-20 years ago, RTP was the center of the Triangle. Today, we see our downtown areas as districts with potential and full of opportunities. When RBC Center was built, the preparation stages were few and quite frankly insufficient. Had we built that arena downtown, we would be talking now about replacing it.
So, does a downtown arena help our skyline? No, it doesn’t. However, it may help us get more hotel space and entertainment destinations. I think that one of the most heated debates would be on the topic of location. Since we talk about downtown, where in downtown could it go? Which area could become a great host of such a huge project? Anyone involved in the downtown development process knows that there will be NIMBYs fighting back, bringing up traffic and all sorts of excuses why the city should not build a downtown arena. One of my recommendations would be the Fayetteville Street area. No, not THE Fayetteville Street we normally discuss, but the section South of MLK/Western Blvd. I think there is massive potential there, as well as room for redevelopment. Yes, there are people living in that district, but they are not the typical NIMBYs, plus they could benefit greatly from a massive renaissance of that “forgotten” section of Raleigh. Technically, it is not downtown, but it’s very close and the city should include it in the downtown overlay district plan. I do not see high-rise developments being built there, but the arena would not take up space that otherwise could have hosted skyscrapers. What do you guys think?
April 9th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Ernest,
I agree with that area as a possible location. Downtown Raleigh is very small and there is basically no area in the immediate downtown area that could house a building the size of the RBC Center. It has to be on the fringes somewhere. With lots of space available for parking. It’s not going to be like Madison Square Garden or the Verizon Center. Hopefully it would be within some sort of reasonable walking distance to the current nightlife areas. In the meantime, they should build more commercial destinations next to the RBC Center.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Are you talking about the South Park neighborhood, next to the dogfood plant? If so, Im all for it. It will be a great excuse to redevelope that area. Sure, Id love to see it as an up and coming residential neighborhood, but if you drive through that area, you’ll see that that wont be a possibility, at least for another 30 or so years, maybe. The people who live there probably wont even know whats going on until the bulldozers and landmovers show up, Haha! Although it might block the skyline view from the top of the Hammond Rd. exit coming from 440 inner.
Lee,
I think thats a good thing about downtown being “insulated”. I find that the innerstates in dt Charlotte to be a boundary to progress in development and the overall feel of the areas they pass through. Plus, where would you put such highways in dt raleigh if you had the choice. Raleigh as it is has good transition from one place or district to another. I couldnt imagine a highway cutting through between St. Marys and Glenwood South or through the warehouse district or just beyond Moore square. I think everyone else could agree with me on that. By not having a highway that tightly circles our city, we can enjoy more of a city feel over a larger area and we can grow larger in that area without a huge road as a barrier to development. How much real development do you see outside the boundaries of those highways in Charlotte?
April 10th, 2008 at 6:56 am
jrd,
Your assumption is correct. That entire section West of the plant can serve a good purpose and attract new development. That area has been sitting there, underutilized, for a very long time.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Okay, where is everybody? Have y’all given up?
April 25th, 2008 at 7:39 am
Hey what is that building behind RBC Plaza and Two Hanover Square?