Downtown Raleigh’s skyline will change dramatically in the next several years with the addition of new towers, particularly in the southern end. Are you excited?
UPDATE 10/08/2008:
First of the Edison updates:
UPDATE 07/20/2007:
He is an updated version of the future Raleigh Skyline rendering. It reflects a more current version of what we might see in 2008 and beyond.
Closer:
The current version of Raleigh (2006):
The future rendering of Raleigh:
A less cartoony look at the rendering:
Discuss!
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Created
on Sunday, October 29th, 2006 in the category Illustrations.
October 30th, 2006 at 11:21 am
Nice rendering man. It is nice to see them all together in the skyline. They should spread out into the space between the Wachovia Building and The Quorum Center. That would fill out the skyline a little.
Where is The Soleil Center at? Oh yeah, it won’t be in the downtown skyline. What a waste of such a tall skyscraper. They don’t build lenses wide enough to get that in the skyline. Well, Crabtree Skyline dot com seems to be still up for grabs.
Looks great, can’t wait till it’s a reality.
October 30th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Matt,
Let me thank you again for the wonderful work you have done. Not only you use your own photos as the basis, but also provide some truly nice picture of what the future holds for DT Raleigh’s skyline.
I think we can all agree that today’s skyline does not reflect the city’s image to the rest of the nation. As Raleigh gets [consistently] good grades on most lists, the skyline leaves much to be desired. We have been blessed with a fine angle – South Saunders Street – from which one can view the skyline and get impressed a little. I love tall buildings, but I also want to be realistic about the expectations from getting all those great towers. Maybe I have grown accustomed to seeing so many other impressive skylines that I still remain unimpressed. Your renderings reveal the harsh reality: we missed a lot of opportunities in the 90′s, when much of our sprawl happened. During that time we were lucky to build the infrastructure that gave birth to DRA, the Warehouse District and Glenwood South, but we had little success in attracting more businesses downtown.
The biggest challenge for DT Raleigh will be to fill the gap between South End and Hillsborough Str. This gap will take a VERY long time to fill, as there are considerable obstacles and several low-rises we’ll never see replaced by taller structures. Putting together sizeable lots is getting harder and harder. My guess is that the City of Raleigh is waiting for the right moment before they sell the entire block to a developer and move their offices elsewhere. This spot could potentially add at least two more high-rises and start making the distance between Wachovia Center and Reynolds Tower 1 appear smaller. If the Dawson was delivered as the original 15-story tower vision, and if the corner of Hargett & Dawson could get something taller than 10 floors (like it should), things could have looked more promising for our skyline. The next big hope comes from the N&O block and the Wake County’s new courthouse building. In other words, I expect to see a lot happening along McDowell Str, with Salisbury Str picking up some momentum.
Sadly, the Wilmington Str section shows very little promise when it comes to the money shot. With the exception of RBC Plaza, every single building will be pretty much obscured, especially as Sites 2 and 3 get developed. There is a dark horse, however, and we should not ignore its potential: the South-East entrance to downtown. Matt, you put together a nice rendering some time ago, with what was the vision for First Citizens Bank’s tower. With RBC Plaza filling that space and being the new tallest, I can see this angle carrying a lot promise. Those of you who do not remember this rendering, check this link:
http://raleighskyline.com/illus/ralr.jpg
Now, if you can modify the above rendering to reflect at least the Marriott Hotel, Lafayette, and RBC Plaza, we may end up discussing things even more. The key is to maintain visibility of our tallest towers within the CBD – Reynolds Tower 1 will sit outside the CDB’s boundaries – and this angle may be what we are looking for. Keep in mind the possibility of getting something above 25 floors next to Sheraton. If Highwoods Properties gets bold enough to fully take advantage of their Progress Plaza North, we may even get something of 25 stories and above to the North of Progress Plaza Two… I know, how dare am I to even suggest something like that :LOL:
Last, but not least, I want to see what will happen around the new convention center, particularly to the North. To me, this area screams for a 50+ story skyscraper, and across from the latter, to the East – remember, Gale Str sits between McDowell and Salisbury streets – possibly something around 20-30 stories.
Anyway, great work. Just keep the visions/renderings coming. Maybe someone in the city government will actually take a look at these images and manage to figure out what this city really needs in order to look great. At least from the distance
November 1st, 2006 at 12:45 pm
what about greensboro? why can’t greensboro build tall buildings? seemingly everything goes to charlotte.
November 1st, 2006 at 9:15 pm
I love this rendering, it is amazing. You truly have a talent. Anyone else think that Raleigh might look kinda like Austin, TX when the gap between reynolds is somewhat filled?
November 1st, 2006 at 10:04 pm
Raleigh is going to look more city like in the future I somewhat miss living there, but I love living in Pittsburgh better.
November 2nd, 2006 at 10:05 am
The picture is well – picture perfert! Now if the bean counters had put the RBC Center downtown where it belongs instead of a cow pasture. This WOULD look like a real city!
November 2nd, 2006 at 4:37 pm
Alan, Greensboro has a lot of competition from Winston-Salem. Raleigh and Durham do not really compete against each other when it comes to skylines. Durham seems to aim more at renovations – the right thing to do at this point in time – while Raleigh wants to create a better image after reopening Fayetteville Str. Greensboro is a very silent up and coming city, which means it will [silently] get taller towers, when we least expect it
If it makes you feel any better, RBC Plaza’s status as the new tallest for our city is the result of “cheating”, not that the tower will be a 40+ story skyscraper. Charlotte is blessed with having banks/financial institutions that put a lot of emphasis on image and the building of a community (Uptown). I am sure that when Greensboro reaches the population numbers of Raleigh and Charlotte, its skyline will look much better than the aformentioned cities.
November 4th, 2006 at 8:55 pm
why has it taken raleigh so long to get interested in building tall buildings? it is long over due but hey i guess better now than never! i don’t know why everyone thinks charlotte is so much better! it took them a longer time really to get their downtown underway also. 15 years ago charlotte’s downtown wasn’t good at all but it was bigger than raleigh is now so i think raleigh is making sufficient progress. does anyone know when they are suppose to break ground on site one and four? is there a site two and three? let me know anybody!
November 8th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
The key to building taller buildings in any city is having a market interest in filling them. With that said, I think that if and when the Reynolds group pulls off the coup and lands that mysterious Fortune 500 company as the main tenant of their proposed tower on Hillsborough St., we will see a flurry of other companies following suit to try an occupy downtown space. We’ve already had a number of small and medium sized copanies move or announce plans to move their headquaters downtown. I think that it is only a matter of time before we see “real” development that will put Raleigh on the map as it deserves.
Having said all of that, I would caution anyone from comparing Charlotte to Raleigh to Greensboro. Each of these towns have different business climates, cultures, and populations, and the downtown developments are a reflection of that.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
I believe Raleigh deserves a decent skyline which it does not have currently. These future renderings look sharp, especially that Atlantaesque one in the back. I’m impressed by Charlotte’s skyline, as it does reflect it’s population and economy. But it is true that Charlotte, Raleigh, and Greensboro are very different cities. I think it will be interesting in the future to see Raleigh step up.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
This website has some great photos and updates on the city. I’m so excited to see Raleigh on it’s way to becoming a big city. Beleive me when i say everyone wants this city to grow! Someone tell someone to put the Soleil Center downtown or else they aren’t going to get any sales. The future renderings of the city look great we need more people downtown so it will continue to grow.
November 9th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Supposedly site 1 and the marriot are being delayed by the adjacent building owners worrying that their buildings are going to “sink” into the future site. Expenses have skyrocketed for extra shoring and groundbreaking has been rumored not until october 2007 (according to my sources in the construction biz). Realistically the project will prob start next summer. Site 1 is going to be massive with a over a million sq. feet of space.
November 9th, 2006 at 11:59 am
Great picture, but a third of it is Crepe Myrtle trees, and you could take out the visual distraction of the speed limit sign.
November 13th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
I agree with Matt’s post above (and not just because we’re namesakes) that I would have liked to have seen Soleil Center much closer to downtown. I believe the RBC Plaza condos are mostly sold out – that should send a message to the Soleil Group about where people are most interested in buying condos. It’s a shame, the renderings for that building are beautiful and would have looked great downtown. You also can’t help but wonder if the people at First Citizens are looking back on their decision to scrap their downtown tower plan. I think Ernest makes a lot of great, well-thought out points as well. I think it’s a matter of time before southeast Raleigh finally starts getting the attention of some developers (new Super Walmart planned for Walnut Creek area comes to mind).
It’s not likely, but seeing that RBC revised their plans to extend the height of RBC Plaza at the last minute (yes, the spire is “cheating”, but still reaches taller nonetheless) I’d hope that maybe when Reynolds 1 begins to move forward some thought might be given to adding a few more floors to that project. Of course, that is driven largely by market demand, but purely from a visual standpoint of the overall skyline, what it would do for Raleigh!
November 17th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Wow. Very nice. Very impressive…I would really like to feature some of your stuff on my blog…
November 20th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Matt K,
Let me share with you something concerning the Soleil Center 1 tower. It is Westin Hotels that would not have “allowed” the branding of the hotel if it was going Downtown. Without Westin, there would have been no Soleil Center 1. As for the developers (Soleil Group), they are very much interested in Downtown Raleigh, but first, they have to finish Soleil Center 1. The delays on the groundbreaking are due to some internal redesigns, as the number of condos have been increased from 41 to 49 – splitting of some units into smaller condos. The sooner we get Soleil Center 1 and 2, the sooner Soleil Group will come to Downtown Raleigh
Ernest
November 25th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
Raleigh has had size issues sinse NC built that dowdy building they call their Staatehouse. I have seen MCMansions larger than that in Raleigh.
But seriously, Raleigh needs to trim it’s bush around the beltway, or at least put on some peep shows, then everyone will be able to see it’s true size and beauty. People won’t be inspired by it or ever want to go down on it unless they can see it in the normal course of their days.
You shouldn’t have to make a special trip in order to see your city.
I get to enjoy my wonderfull city everyday while I am walking around the lake, driving to the grocery or looking out my apartment window. Take a lesson from MPLS or even DES MOINES, IOWA.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
The rendering of the future skyline looks pretty cool. But I still cant believe we settled for that design for the new Marriot. It almost makes me sick. Oh, well. All we need now is something huge to fill in that gap, like around Nash square. That area needs something big to bring life to it and more high rises so that raleigh can become a little more 3d. Raleigh has an advantage over some cities like Charlotte and Greensboro who seem to have one main “strip” of action. We have many unique districts and other factors that make us special, like our eye for historic preservation, Charlotte. People just fail to realize this. There are too many who want to stand in the way of progress for downtown. Who ever said that everything good has to be built on Fayetteville street.
I think the “center of town” should be dragged over a little bit to the Nash Square area, not to take away from the Fayetteville street progress, but in addition to it. Then we can see taller/better buildings around it like on Hillsborough street toward the capital, and in the “warehouse district.” (which by the way sucks, the buildings have no real historical significance and I think everyone would rather see real buildings built there)
This would make the city walkable from Glenwood South to all other parts of downtown. Plus, a mass transit rail system to downtown would make a lot more sense if this were done. Raleigh has to “spread it’s wings” in order to fly and ist important that we not settle for littl mid-rises, it has been proven that downtown can do better.
P.S. Why does everybody hat the round Clarion Hotel? Dont you think it probably looked pretty freakin cool to the people of Raleigh when it was built?
December 2nd, 2006 at 12:49 am
I love the Clarion. It’s not exactly an original design, though. There’s a Holiday Inn (which it originally was) that is from exactly the same design plan in L.A.
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:06 pm
Do people hate the Clarion Hotel? I remember seeing it when I was a kid, when it was the Holiday Inn and I thought it was cool. I always thought that the restaurant on the top rotated. I always thought that would be a good idea. I think the design is a bit old for this day and age, but I still like it.
I would like to see pictures of the Holiday Inn at L.A. Ours is probably better.
December 4th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
I have no problem with the Clarion Hotel in Downtown, and I still wonder why even some people consider it an eyesore. Sure, there are a lot of inspiring towers to offer better models, but when Clarion was built, there was hardly a reason to be in Downtown Raleigh. Inspiring designs and architectural wonders will eventually come to Raleigh, but not any time soon, I am afraid.
Since I am not a big fan of linear skylines, I must say that I am a little anxious to see the area between Dawson and Salisbury Str getting filled with towers. We’ll have a smaller skyline towards Glenwood South after West At North and 630 North Street get developed, but we need a few towers in the Warehouse District. Our skyline needs a little depth, much like Pittsburgh’s.
December 4th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Hi Ernest,
Good info to know on the Soleil group plans… I knew about the second smaller tower at Crabtree (either through here or your RaleighMSA site) but I didn’t know they had visions for another possible project downtown in the future.
My own input regarding the Clarion – I don’t find it an eyesore at all, I’m not sure why people do. I think there is some photography that makes it look awkward, but closer up in person, I don’t find it unattractive at all. Perhaps in the era during it’s construction, it was considered pretty contemporary – but as you know, all trends tend to run in cycles. Part of the problem is that it sits out on the edge of downtown with nothing to compliment it. Get both Reynolds’ proposed buildings built and some of the proposals for Glenwood South – and then I think it fits into the skyline a bit more elegantly.
It’s funny that the warehouse district comes up, a friend of mine and I were having a discussion about that area just a day or two ago. Does the city have a firm re-development and use plan for that area yet? Or is that going to wait until they figure out what to do with the Dorothea Dix property?
And one last thing – I have to agree with MPLSjase’s observation about the view of downtown. It looks great most places around the north and east parts of the Beltline, but from 40 – good lord, you can’t see downtown till you are practically on top it. You catch glimpses from Saunders and Wilmington streets as you travel 40 and then it’s gone. I daydream about a day when maybe you’ll be able to spot the Raleigh skyline as you come in on 40 from RDU and the west, but I don’t think it’ll happen in my lifetime.
December 4th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Matt,
I am glad to know that you are happy about Soleil Group’s vision for downtown. Remember, nothing is written in stone, mainly because they do not currently own property there. Nor I see them kissing anyone’s ass to gain easy access. When they are ready to come downtown, be certain that it won’t take them long before they deliver a new tallest
Naturally, they will need to be well under way with Soleil Center 1 and 2, so give them another 2-3 years.
Development in the Warehouse District is independent of Dorothea Dix Campus. The former will gain momentum once the Hargett/Dawson Str condo midrise and the CAM project is delivered. There are people out there who are looking into these opportunities VERY seroiusly, but at the same time they move slowly. I anticipate the pace to pick up after 2008, when most of the current projects are either finished or well under way. The biggest boost for the image of the Warehouse District will most certainly come from the proposed Reynolds Tower 1 and 2. Also important for creating some sort of connectivity are the Bloomsbury Estates 1 & 2 (to the West), along with the N&O HQ, the new Wake County Courthhouse Annex and the Davie/McDowell condo building. These are critical to improving Warehouse District’s connection with the rest of Downtown.
Of course, we could talk for hours about the endless possibities that exist. One look at Matt’s second image and you will see a large territory that screams for redevelopment. From the new convention center, all the way to Quorum Center, only the sky is the limit. It will all depend on how well city leaders and developers will cooperate. Hopefully, we will continue to raise the bar and start thinking big, without of course losing sight of the street-level, where Downtown Raleigh can do really well.
December 6th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
Does anyone know how tall the new N&O HQs are going to be, if it will only serve as their HQs, or has other office space or residential. I just hope they will realize how their building could be instrumental in helping bridge the gap, not even necessarily “skyline wise” but also with walkability in mind in an otherwise unwalkable area.
I cannot stress this enough, that Nash square will one day be the center of the city. This building should reach at least 25 stories or so, but ideally 30+. I know thats pretty big, but thats what it may take to get the ball rolling for that area to flourish in the future.
I like to imagine a signature tower 59+ stories built on Nash square where the police HQs are and everything else revolving around that. I think that is when we’ll be able to call Raleigh “a real city”.
December 6th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
I meant to say 50+, but you get the idea.
December 19th, 2006 at 10:51 am
JRD,
We are definitely on the same page and share a common vision. Salisbury. McDowell and Dawson Streets offer incredible opportunities to extend the Central Business District (CBD) to the West, the only logical move since City Market has already established a transitional boundary. Since the 7-story Nash became the last [missed] opportunity for a high-rise, to the West section of Dawson Str, the city officials need to take a good look at the current development and encourage taller structures between the East side of Dawson Str and the East side of Wilmington Str. I would love to see the entire block where the City Hall and the Police Dept are located today be redeveloped. I envision something like Lincoln Square, in Bellevue, WA. Check these images out:
http://www.ssaacoustics.com/lincoln_square_1.jpg
http://www.lincoln-square.com/images_pages/gettinghere.jpg
http://www.emporis.com/files/transfer/6/2001/01/127212.jpg
Since both the Police Dept and the Fire Dept headquarters will be moved – the envisioned Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center project – it will be a wonderful opportunity for the city offices to do the same, possibly at a new location, of even in the same block, if it gets redeveloped in stages.
The N&O headquarters is a good “infill”, indeed. Currently, the mid-rise proposal stands at 11-12 stories, but I doubt it will remain at that height. I heard from a good source that the N&O leadership has a solid long-term vision for the newspaper’s presence in DT Raleigh. Their desire to have a nice HQ tower will be too limited in scope if they only think about their own needs. Assuming a developer has accepted to build the proposed HQ. Would he be willing to limit the height when more space can make this new tower a destination? I do not think so. Assuming the N&O doesn’t run into major financial troubles, it would be a big boost if they could sell the “air” rights and let the developer build up. Condos would work very well, considering the view of Nash Square and the gorgeous sunsets the residents would enjoy from their balconies/windows. That would be a great selling point, but to do this the N&O must allow the developer to build a taller structure. Ideally, this would be PERFECT for something around 40 stories.
I think that such a tower could have a tremendous effect in our skyline and boost some additional development between the new Convention Center and the Quorum Center. Since The Nash is most likely going to become yet-another missed opportunity – the original 15-story proposal for The Dawson was the first one in that area – to add height AND density, the last few chances we have for something of 40+ stories will be a possible redevelopment of the entire City Hall/Police Dept block, the Salisbury Str section of the N&O block (when the printing facilities move out of downtown) and the block between the new convention center and County Jail, the Salisbury Str section of the N&O block and the block where the City Hall is now. Technically, there are more areas where we can envision real skyscrapers, but I am afraid the reality here will make the assembling of several lots hard to achieve.
December 20th, 2006 at 3:56 pm
My friend, great job on the picture. Its good to see the future of Raleigh. I was wandering if you could do the same kind of work for Charlotte? We currently 18+ buildings (condo) finished, started, startings, or planned. Plus 3 major office towers, and a few more hotels. I imagine our skyline will be much different than it is now and would love to see your handy work on it.
Up for the Challenge?
January 4th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
That looks nice to see the future skyline of Raleigh. Know Fayetteville needs skyscrapers big time in the downtown. Fayetteville is the city that I live in and somebody needs to talk to someone about downtown developement and skyscrapers.
January 12th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
It has been a long time since I’ve responded on anything skyscraper-wise. for thsoe who remeber me on the skyscraperpage and Skyscrapercity…………………………hello!!!!!
I Still believ in Raleigh and what its doing …things are finally coming around!!!!!!
January 17th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
the growth of d/t raleigh is going to flourish by 2010. raleigh is way ahead of the game as far as cities DT areas go. look at the city of norfolk which has a decent skyline but not much different than raleigh. its just that the water illuminates off the citys DT skyline HQ’s and hotels which make it possible to see DT from portsmouth or even Virginia Beach in certain areas of I-64. norfolk is 400 years old and is just getting to blossom, virginia beach on the other hand, the skyline in VB is sad but you can see development. with only two towers that reach 25 + stories, and the town center which is the highest point in hampton roads until the completion of the twin granby towers in norfolk which both will exceed 450 feet.
what we fail to realize is that raleigh has a number of fortune 500 companies that are looking into the area if not in RTP already. raleighs skyline is not a eye sore, it needs lights ! i dont know why charles meeker wont re-evaluate the vision, hanover 2 (bb&t ) is a big tower and the wachovia tower is too. there should be lighting added on each floor of each high rise, with a unique antenna that sets the cities up and coming projects to the light. the rbc will be a good addition to DT, the soilei center should be in the crabtree area simply because their are no high rises out there that accomodate nhl hurricane fans that travel from VA and other cities in NC. raleigh is going to have to build high rises slow to create density, charlottes skyline is nice but its too cramped, i believe raleigh is looking to spread the towers across downtown districts like similar cities ( ie : richmond va, norfolk va, nashville tn, orlando fl, baltimore md ) raleigh is all about space and distant growth, i think a skyline that symbolizes the cities characteristics stands out. yes, driving on the beltlines we should be able to see the skyline area, we barley see it because it loops around the city but LIGHTS are what we need, being that the citys colors are red, black and white, why not progress energy create a unique light scheme for the DT. we’re ahead of the game, our population is less than 100,000 short of virginia beach, charlotte is already passed VA beach population but 220,000 almost. raleigh is on the rise to becoming a known hub across the US, guaranteed by 2020 a person who was here in 2000 would probably not even recognize it. on that note, uptown raleigh needs high rises next to highwoods properties and rbc centura in uptown north raleigh. there is alot of space for unique high rises that will set the cities offspring unique. cary needs high rises, and durham should look to get back in the high rise game as soon as 2010, durham is a great gain to our metro we cannot leave the bull city behind even if it is the murder capitol. durham is a city that people are aware of in california, chicago and texas just because of its reputation of the cities.
raleigh/durham should look into purchasing the Minneapolis Twins or the Kansas City Royales. maybe even a possible trade for the toronto raptors to move to raleigh. how nice would that be, raleigh royales (mlb) and raleigh raptors (nba ) everything that the city should attempt to do should follow the trend of the city ( raleigh royales = sir walter raleigh ) or ( raleigh/durham twins = twin cities ) as far as the raptors, idk… theres no evidence of raptors here millions of years ago but either way its a good look.
at the end of the day, raleigh is the next atlanta, we have a population boom like no other as well as development. clubs are decent for right now, we went from 6 urban clubs in 2006, now down to 3 in 2007. crime rate is low, they just opened up I540 west which is great, i didnt even know it until I seen people turning on the interstate, so I myself decided to give it a test run before heading back to Norfolk. believe me all raleighings should be proud of raleigh for the moves that its making and in so little time. raleigh is definetley on it’s grind to become a stand out city on the east coast along with atlanta, orlando, miami, charlotte, baltimore, philly, boston. by 2020 it will be in that catagory or it will be ahead.
February 6th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
i think this is going to help Downtown raleigh look better
February 27th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
I am an architect in NYC and really like the rendering. I’m not sure if all the symmetry is correct as I do not fully know the layouts but either way it is good. I think Raleigh could really stand to have one very tall building 80 plus stories. I have visited there a few times with my wife and think the area is beutifull and the downtown has alot of open land. One very tall building always puts the spotlight on a city and with an 80 story building Raleigh could really show it is up and coming, if not already arrived. I would not compare Raleigh to Atlanta although I understand more people may be moving to Raleigh than Atlanta in the next 10 years. To me Atlanta is a buisness hub with very very little soul. The whole city looks to have been done by a cookie cutter. the Mc-buildings are very nice but it is soooo bland and sterile. I love Raleigh, good luck and keep growing those jobs!
February 28th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Does anyone know where I can find a skyline pic of Raleigh with the building elevations?
March 1st, 2007 at 1:03 pm
(In response to Brian)
80 stories????? Are you insane?
What Raleigh needs in the near future is a rail station downtown. Something like Union Station in Washington DC, with shops and restuarants. It could be where the tracks form that little triangle behind the warehouse district. It would have a station, shops and restuarants and would serve as a link to 3 districts; boylan hights, warehouse and whatever the one across hillsborough from st. marys to the south is called. It would be a hub for travelers and commuters and residents alike, with shoping, dining and transportation. It would also pull some of the action over that way, bringing highrise condos, offices, restuarants and other shopping. Plus, it is central considering the way downtown is moving now.
March 7th, 2007 at 11:42 am
(In response to JRD)
A train station Hub would be good but you do not have the train/trolley infrastructure to support it. At best Raleigh should move forward with the light rail system but even that is tough becuase of the sprawl nature of the city. An 80 story building is not insane in fact it would be a big piece of the lure of a WALKABLE downtown Raleigh. Washington DC, NY or Philadelphia train hubs have been in place for 80 years and structures built around those hubs. Modern growing sytems, think any asian city, build the downtown and trains and subways follow. That is protocol JRD. Again Raleigh will no doubt continue to be a spectaular city that attracts people and buisness fast but needs to keep focus on the downtown.
March 8th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Actually 65 stories would be OK, then Raleigh would have the tallest building in NC, indeed in the Middle Atlantic.
March 16th, 2007 at 9:37 am
I would like to see the downtown area fill out beyond Fayetteville St, skyscraper wise, like a lot of you have mentioned. I would also like to see more creativity placed on the appearance of the buildings. Currently, downtown Raleigh looks very industrial, but at night it does look much better. I would love to see sleek, modern, and 70 stories buildings in the downtown district so we don’t have to wait for nightfall to enjoy the skyline view. With the addition of some much taller skyscrapers, our current ones would look much better and the downton area would appear larger, more balanced, and Raleigh would look like a metropolitan city. Hopefully with all the new changes going on, we will have the upscale businesses to go along with the changes that make a downtown area, DOWNTOWN!!!
March 21st, 2007 at 11:10 am
Accidently found this site and find myself on cloud 10 or 11. It’s wonderful to find so many respondents, the majority apparently Raleighites, enamored by tall buildings. I can only hope the seeming inside knowledge most of you display about future addtions to Raleigh’s skyline is well based and that the new towers will come soon. Surely, there is no question but that a city’s quality and importance is measured to quite an extent by the impressiveness of its skyline. Investors, developers, businesses considering relocation and tourists (not a complete list) respect and appreciate skylines as a means of assessment, appraisal and evaluation of a city that is thriving, prosperous and successful. Sorry, I know I’m looking like a thesaurus addict. It’s just the euphoria from seeing others so certain there are more towers in our future. These buildings, of course, can’t simply happen because we love them. Their advent is market and economy driven. But perhaps we have reached a stage of critical mass that will propel us ahead. This is a great city. And it’s becoming greater with the resurgence of downtown. It’s exciting to attend an event at The Center for Performing Arts and see two or three of its facilities hosting performances on the same night. It’s wonderful to see how the (relatively) simple act of re-opening Fayetteville Stree has so positively affected a downtown’s revitalization (which, of course, was already gaining steam). It’s great to see the new restaurants downtown with the promise of more to come. Here’s to skyscrapers.
March 25th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
well i heard the new progress plaza is going to have two 30 + stories and one 15 story and an entertainment complex, mmm that sounds pretty damn good!!! raleigh is a great city and has everything to offer and once the downtown gets a lil more urban it will be unstoppable, thats really the only thing were missing!! oh yeah and we dont need to build a 70 or 80 plus tower ,i think thats too out of place for now…. maybe once raleigh reaches 500,000 or more, just keep building buildings at least 25 – 40 stories and design them well not just another box. thats the thing that makes charlotte’s downtown nice, its not so much the height as it is the architecture, dont get me wrong though, height is important, we dont wanna feel like were living in smurfville…. peace!!!!
March 27th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Rob, Hope your info ont two 30 +, etc. for Progress Plaza is from a good source. Sounds good. I agree with you we don’t need a 70 to 80-story tower, but I probably wouldn’t turn it down (as if I had a choice). But keep in mind, the population inside the city limits may be under a half million, but Wake County as a whole is in the 750,000 range. Let’s just keep on thinking tall.
March 30th, 2007 at 1:04 am
oh yeah my source is pretty reliable. i know someone who works for progress energy and they told me so far those are the plans and that progress wants a large density project with at least two high rises surpassing 30 stories and an entertainment project, plus if you look on raleigh’s city website they say the same exact thing so im pretty sure it is true. they also told me that they really want to start construction in the fall, thats even better!!!!! sounds like 2008 and 2009 will be two big years for downtown raleigh which are long overdue, peace!!!!
April 5th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
rob, I do not mean to rain on your parade, and I truly hope I am wrong, but the the “two 30-story towers” was a typo in the city’s Livable Streets website. It was discussed in a couple of urban forums and from there it became a rumor. My [three] sources – can’t get much closer to the lowest level than them – confirmed that there is only one 30-story and one 14-story building. However, the final height will be determined by the demand, which means both buildings may end up taller. I hope that your source is correct, but I am afraid we should settle for the two towers.
brian, not only your idea is not insane, but it is more appropriate than most other proposals I’ve seen. Sure, it may not be realistic, given Raleigh’s current population and the city’s attitude, but if the right group of investors brings such a proposal to the table, I don’t think most people would object, myself included
Personally, I am not concerned that an 80-story skyscraper would look out of place. To me, 2-3 story underutilized eyesores can do much more harm to the eye. Raleigh’s skyline needs an image boost, ASAP. Even with all the nice projects in the pipeline, we are still nowhere near where we should be. Having lived in NYC, I know exactly where you are coming from. Only density can help us get a decent transportation system and other urban amenities.
Last, but not least, let me share a small list of the tallest proposals and visions for Downtown Raleigh, that we know of:
1) RBC Plaza (32 stories/538ft; under construction)
2) Reynolds Tower 1 (32 stories/427ft; approved)
3) Progress Plaza North (aka Block “B”) (30 stories; envisioned)
4) 414 Fayetteville/Sheraton pavillion (25-30 stories, or even more; envisioned)
My guess is that the next major step will be a high-rise above 40 floors. This may not sound impressive to some, but going from 40 to 50 and then to 60 will not be as hard. 30-story towers will be fillers, some day.
April 6th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
These are BEAUTIFUL RENDERINGS!!>>>>I think that the Soleil (Glen-TREE) tower would look better downtown also. 2 Four star hotels downtown would force out-of towners, and celebrities to the city core, bringing more LIFE to downtown RALEIGH!! and it would look great!! Think about it ya’ll…Crabtree is in a FLOOD ZONE!! That would be a BAD spot in my opinion to put a beautiful skyscraper!
April 7th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
keddrick, at the risk of being redundant, I will say this: Soleil Group does not own land in downtown. Also, it was Westin that did not approve their brand for DT Raleigh. In the past, during the RFP phase for Site 4, there was a proposal for a Westin, but that was more astroturf and less of a reality. I would love to see Soleil Center downtown, but this would not happen. Better have this great high-rise in Crabtree Valley than not having it at all, IMHO.
April 14th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
I see Ernest, you have enlightened me on what seemingly did not make any sense at first!! Now it DOES make sense….thanks!! Yay for RALEIGH!
April 14th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Glad to be of service
April 17th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Ernest P. says, “Better have this great high-rise in Crabtree Valley than not having it at all, IMHO.”
Most respectfully, because you seem genuinely up on the subject, I cordially disagree. Its height will be a bit wasted (not to mention out of place) deep down in Crabtree Valley. But much more importantly, it will compete for tenants with downtown (where such a building would be quite fitting).
April 18th, 2007 at 11:28 am
LH, it is perfectly fine to have different opinions, and I truly hope you won’t misinterpret my extended replies
The question of “having it” vs. “not having it”, however, is not answered in your second sentence. Just like you, I wish we had Soleil Center 1 in the downtown area, but can this happen? If the city had a way of swapping space, I would be the first to cheer, but the reality is different. In other words, and regardless how we feel, we are not the ones who risk all that money (about $120 million, if I am not mistaken). Developers and demand is what drives these projects, not opinions and speculations. In a free market, we let the buyers decide – which we do not disagree, I am sure.
The last observation is something that many of us have debated in a couple of urban forums. Personally, I do not believe that. In the early stages of this proposal I took a position, with some reservations, but the continuous scaling up of projects (i.e. RBC Plaza, Site One, West At North, 630 North Str, Bloomsbury Estates, The Nash), along with newer proposals (i.e. Block “B”/Progress Plaza North, 111 Seaboard) and visions (i.e. 414 Fayetteville Str/Sheraton Pavillion) have proven, beyond any doubt, that not only Soleil Center 1 didn’t hurt, but in fact helped all the downtown projects. If you followed the news after Soleil Center 1 was proposed, then you know this is true. Did you read about the new proposal for a 25-story tower for Hillsborough Str? According to the developer, it will include (at minimum) 200 hotel rooms, with two of the brands they own, and 200-250 condos (if market can handle that number).
Now, if we do the math, we shall see clearly that Soleil Center 1 has not hurt downtown, at all. The market is different, and if there is no demand, Soleil Group will pay for their miscalculation. Besides, they offer less than 50 units, and many of them are in the price range that nobody in downtown offers. Glenwood Gardens has a lot more units than Soleil Center 1, but I don’t hear anyone objecting. Maybe because those condos are in a cluster of 4-story buildings. How about the 7-story Lassiter, in North Hills, with about the same numbers of condos like Soleil Center 1? If stealing from downtown is an issue, we need to be concerned about those projects, too. My opinion is that both Crabtree Valley and North Hills will help curb some of the sprawl. While Crabtree Valley will never become truly urban, it will bring more people closer to the center than any other area. There are already hundreds of residential condos and apartments in the pipeline – Soleil Center 1 pales in comparison – which I guarantee you will attract more suburbanites who wish to live in a more central location. Let’s face it, Crabtree Valley is actually more central than Downtown. The former is close to the airport, RTP, RBC Center, Durham and Chapel Hill. Proximity to Rex Hospital and Duke Raleigh Hospital is also a plus. Not to mention the amount of retail, although I am not attracted to malls. For Downtown to compete with Crabtree Valley, it might take a bit longer, and it is independent of high-rises being located there. The former has very little retail – nothing important, anyway – while the latter has a ton of such amenities (thanks to the mall).
LH, let me say again that regardless of our slightly different opinions on some aspects, I am with you when it comes to attracting the best high-rises downtown. However, I have spoken to the developers more than a few times – no, I am not affiliated with them – and I can assure you they would love to do something bigger in the downtown area, but what they propose will strictly be there to satisfy a certain segment of the population. Some of their buyers are people who travel and wish to have a nice condo in every city out of which they operate. They are not, and will never be, downtown dwellers. Sorry for the VERY long post, but I enjoy this discussion
April 19th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
I STILL SAY, WHAT ABOUT GREENSBORO? EVERYTHING SEEMINGLY IS GOING TO CHARLOTTE OR RALEIGH. GREENSBORO DEFINITELY HAS THE POPULATION AND MSA THAT IT CAN HAVE SEVERAL 30-40+ STORY BUILDINGS. GREENSBORO FOR SOME REASON TAKES DECADES TO CATCH THE CLUE THAT OTHER CITIES CAUGHT YEARS AGO. DOWNTOWN GREENSBORO IS THE PITS WHEN IT COMES TO SKYSCRAPERS. I MEAN WHAT’S A 21 STORY SKY SCRAPER THESE DAYS? THAT’S ALL IT HAS TO OFFER AS ITS TALLEST BUILDING. SHAME ON YOU GREENSBORO AND ALL THOSE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES DEVELOPERS. YOU ARE NOT DOING GREENSBORO JUSTICE. PLEASE SOMEONE…..GIVE ME SOME SUPPORT FOR GREENSBORO!
April 19th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Whew… Ernest…you need a rest. Stretch your fingers…now relax. Again stretch…relax. There, they probably don’t ache so badly now. If you keep writing Tolstoy-novel-size skyscraper comments, you’re never gonna get your rings off.
Well, the thing I agree with you about most is when you say, “Developers and demand is what drives these projects, not opinions and speculations.” I said something close to that in a March 21st comment to this site: “These buildings, of course, can’t simply happen because we love them. Their advent is market and economy driven.”
In a way, we play a fool’s game, indulging ourselves with visions of multiple 20, 30, 40, 50-story structures stretching our skyline toward the heavens. We have this structure-envy complex, sneakily comparing our beloved city on-the-rise with the likes of Charlotte, Indianapolis, Louisville, Jacksonville (the Florida one) and so on. Tall buildings are fun (and less controversial than tall ships). And besides simply liking the looks of a gracefully tall skyline, there are more business-like reasons to hope for it. In the minds of some who look for a place to start or relocate a business, to help judge if a hot touring show should play here, or a basketball tournament, or an art exhibit, or, of course, a convention (partial list), a skyline is (well, may be) at least a fraction of their equation as they assess our worthiness. Surely it would seem to suggest that a city is alive and well with good places to dine, dance and listen to jazz.
Still, we see large relocations going to RTP, North Raleigh and suburbia. And as remarkably fast as our city is growing, could it not be so that the market will harbor only so many folks who want more office space or a groovy condo? So then, isn’t there competition… Well, I don’t really know. I bow to your evident knowledge and your contacts in the arena. And I will go on wishing for continuing announcements of new (I hope) graceful towers and a continually more impressive skyline.
Enjoyed it.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Alan, you sound so desperate
I am with you, 100%. Greensboro deserves better, and more. It is a shame that developers seem to overlook GSO, but at the same time I have a feeling that something big may follow the redevelopment of the former Wachovia Bldg. I would like to say something around 30 floors, but you may ask me to back up my claim and that will be hard. Maybe something similar to this, except for a different crown (the building to the left is the former Wachovia Bldg):
http://greensboring.com/pod/park_central_plaza.jpg
Let’s be fair, when Raleigh was the population of Greensboro, the skyline was nothing even close to GSO’s. You guys have build a very nice pedestrian experience, and projects like Southside are doing a lot more for the urbanity of DT Greensboro than a 30-stoy tower… which will come one day, anyway
LH, the day I’ll stop typing is the day I’l die
Seriously, though, what I want for DT Raleigh is not just an impressive skyline, but also a great urban experience, with entertainment districts well connected to each other. Skyline, by itself, serves nothing more than an image – and density – but what provides a great and memorable experience is a combination of both an impressive skyline and a strong street-level activity. Another important combination is that of historic preservation and modern architecture co-existing, which is why I praise Portland, OR and Richmond, VA, for their great job of maintaining a big chunk of what used to make up the urban fabric of yester years. Raleigh has lost several nice historic midrises, but also kept many nice buildings that help us remember the uniqueness and character of the old DT Raleigh.
As for the rest of the city, our officials have not done well, I am afraid
I know that some good work is being done now, with Mitchel Silver at the helm, but a lot of permanent damage has been made, as well. As if developers have no common sense, whatsoever. A major milestone will be reached if Morgan Stanley actually selects DT Raleigh for their regional center. It will show that downtown is a great place to relocate your business and provide a path for similar relocations. If DT Raleigh – and DT Durham – can become the No 1 choice for companies relocating to and/or operating out of the Triangle, then we may have found our answer to the continuous sprawl. Central locations have to become places to live, work and play, before we hope for anything better. But this is independent of skylines, in a way.
April 22nd, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Alan, you should be very proud of Greensboro. The buildings that Greensboro does have, while maybe not so tall, are in my opinion awesome examples of all kinds of archetecture. Especially the Jefferson Pilot Bldg. and many others are art deco. Raleigh has nothing like it, and certainly not Charlotte since they have traded all things reminiscent of their past for towers. Be happy with what you do have.
Although Im afraid Ernest is right, my cousin Roy is gutting the wachovia and building a 30 something next door. I wish he would invest in downtown Raleigh, but he seems committed to the future of Downtown Greensboro:(
Ernest, when did you hear this of Morgan Stanely, and when will we know??? That is exciting to me! If they do come to Raleigh, lets hope thy build a new supertall in the middle of the warehouse district to get the ball rolling in that area:)
April 23rd, 2007 at 4:47 pm
JRD, very well said about Greensboro. It is a very under-rated downtown, IMHO, and I can only see prosperity in its future. Glad to see Roy doing such a great job. His vision must be rewarded. Hopefully, he won’t have any troubles making his 30-story vision come true
It will sound as if I am trying to impress y’all, but I honestly cannot say anything more about Morgan Stanley. My sources may be solid, but we are also discussing the “courting process”, not the final decision. A lot will depend on the initiatives that Morgan Stanley may receive from the state and local authorities. Without any initiatives, it may be hard to bring their center in our area. Since such companies care about the bottom line, it will be tough for a developer to lure them downtown. If Morgan Stanley picks DT Raleigh, then I am not certain we will see any new towers. They are more likely to work with developers who have already proposed something, be that Block “B”, Reynolds Tower 2, or the Sheraton pavillion/414 Fayetteville Street tower. This is only a gut feeling, so I may be proven entirely wrong. The N&O block (given that the newspaper needs a lot of money to continue operating as a competitive publication) and the lot adjacent to One Progress Plaza may be the dark horses, but I wouldn’t bet on these two sites.
How soon will we hear about Morgan Stanley’s decision? Also unknown to me. My guess is within the next 3-4 months. At this stage, I am not convinced that even the company knows what the timeline will be. There is a lot of hope, but no commitments yet.
April 24th, 2007 at 11:50 am
Why is it that we always seem to digress and begin discussing other city’s developments that have NOTHING to do with the Raleigh skyline? I can understand Alan’s concerns, but he would be better off discussing them elsewhere.
The key to getting companies like Morgan Stanley to locate downtown is having high paid white colllar executives downtown to support their operations during business hours. Financial services companies go where the money is, and once RBC HQ and the company that will occupy the Reynolds tower office space set up shop, we will have more justification for having a Morgan Stanley downtown, and maybe a Fidelity branch as well.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Don,
I think your comment on Morgan Stanley is right on the money. DT Raleigh is slowly building the infrastructure that could slowly attract financial services companies. RBC Centura and Capital Bank are surely the type of entities that could become a magnet for additional growth in the financial services direction. I am glad you mentioned Fidelity Investments. The latter has committed to at least 2000 new jobs. However, during the initial talks, Fidelity Investments spoke of 5000 new positions, which makes me think that some of them could potentially end up in DT Raleigh. With the right infrastructure and some incentives, this is possible.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
I don’t have the contacts Ernest does, but a well-informed source close to the top tells me all the T’s are dotted and I’s crossed on the move of the New York Stock Exchange to DT Raleigh. It’ll begin as soon as they get the building jacked up and on rails. Might take longer than the Hatters Lighthouse move, but heck, it could well be worth it. No final word yet on when the move of the Empire State Building to DTR will begin. Actually, I know, but I’m not yet at liberty to divulge.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:35 am
what the hell happened to site one?!?! why is it taking so long to break ground on that thing. they proposed that thing like over a year and a half ago!!! why does it take raleigh so long to get downtown projects off the ground, we’re so quick to build subdivisions and shopping centers but things that really matter they waist too much time! this thing was suppose to open like 6 months after the convention center but there is no way that is gonna happen!!!!!! i just dont see it? and what about boylan flats and tucker street? i’ve seen the sign for them for the past what… two years!!!!!! what are they doing around there man?
April 25th, 2007 at 7:49 am
laryea: It’s frustrating, isn’t it? I expect the answer is closing the deal on financing. Besides Site 1, what about the Lafayette? Surely, profits will be lost because that prime-site hotel won’t be completed by the time the convention center (already well booked) opens.
April 25th, 2007 at 9:08 am
That’s a good one, DUD
I admire your sense of humor, seriously. As a side note, I heard that they will build the WTC in DT Raleigh, but they have too many designs to choose from, so this will take time, as well 
Site One depends on how fast the underground parking deck will be done. They were hoping to break ground this Spring, but obviously this is not going to happen. It is not the developer who stalls. Now, as soon as the parking deck is constructed, Site One will break ground. Lafayette is another story. During the initial study they found that some [environmental] cleanup is necessary and the developer went back and forth with the city in order to determine who is going to pay for it. At least this is what I heard, and maybe it is not 100% accurate, but it’s pretty close to what happened. Also, I heard that chef Ashley Christiansen, who was going to operate the signature restaurant at Lafayette, is no longer an Empire Properties partner. The final decision for the sale of Site 4 was recently made, therefore we shouldn’t be overconcerned. Boylan Flats is a mystery to me. Unless demand is high and there are plans to make this project bigger, I am not aware of any other reasons behind the slow progress. Maybe the sale of the land is not finalized yet. I will contact the developer and let y’all know.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:31 am
as for the lafyette i heard they wont break ground until jan or feb of 2008… thats uncalled for really!!! i just dont see why it takes raleigh so long to do things in dt!! my thing is dont tell us about it UNTIL they have finished doing everything and signed all the contracts with the city and the developer and the last thing to do is break ground…man they get you excited about nothing!!!!!!
April 26th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
As long as they deliver it to its maximum possible size, I will be happy. Normally, once a project breaks ground, it moves fast. It is a shame, though, that it will not break ground until 2008
Also, there is a good chance Boylan Flats has been stalled. It is not confirmed yet, but there is a chance. There was interest in this project by future buyers, however. Maybe I will hear some positive news about it soon.
April 30th, 2007 at 10:17 am
I will be the first to report this here, but Matt’s work was featured in today’s News &Observer:
http://www.newsobserver.com/content/news/story_graphics/20070430_skyline.jpg
The title of the article is “Things are looking up for Raleigh” and can be found here (there are two parts, so make sure you hit “Next page”, on the bottom of the article; Matt is also quoted here:
http://www.newsobserver.com/125/story/569254.html
Congratulations, Matt. This is a wonderful promotion for your excellent web site
April 30th, 2007 at 11:10 am
Nice work you’ve done, it is important for a cities skyline to be impressive Raleigh is getting there but not quite there yet.
I think something 45 to 50 stories is needed to really set the downtown skyline. It does not need to be on Fayettville street, but between the BB&t and Wachovia buildinds from a visual stand point. The the 42 story tower planned for Crabtree would be perfect.
April 30th, 2007 at 11:14 am
As a 35-year-old, still-in-Raleigh-native, I must say the current view into downtown already makes me smile and feel like I’m returning home, when I re-enter the city from that direction. The dramatic difference in the last picture I’m sure will be breathtaking and exciting! To see one’s home thriving is always a joy. Just as long as they leave that beuatiful Dix Hospital land intact—I’ve always enjoyed that our downtown was not just concrete and buildings but also trees, grass, parks, and preserved historic sites. Thanks for keeping us informed in such an impressively-rendered way. (Wow, I’m full of hyphens today!)
April 30th, 2007 at 11:39 am
[...] “Future Raleigh Skyline” rendering was featured on the front page of the Monday, April 30, 2007 edition of the [...]
May 1st, 2007 at 6:27 am
Well, I see that Raleigh is trying to catchup with Charlotte but as well all Know the QC is expected to have buildings over 50-70 stories…Charlotte will always dominate the Carolinas Skyline and once Donald Trump comes to town it will always out rank Raleigh in population and excitement…….Good luck
May 1st, 2007 at 10:12 am
Al,
Please settle down and relax. Raleigh doesn’t really care that much about Charlotte. It’s fine if Trump builds two or three 40, 60, 80, or 270-story buildings there. Why should it matter to you if Raleigh is nicely and rapidly improving it’s skyline and dowtown ambience? Nothing to fear, right? “…the QC is expected to have buildings over 50-70 stories,” you say. You’ve already got a 60-story (that’s 10 more than 50). Didn’t you know? Still, you don’t dominate the “Carolinas Skyline” (whatever that is) nearly as much as the Smokies. What? Are y’all trying to catch up with Atlanta? And of course, Charlotte has more popluation. Oh, check out the U.S.C.B stats, and compare the growth rate of the Raleigh metro area with Charlotte’s. Hmm… But thanks for your good luck wishes. And the same to you.
May 1st, 2007 at 11:01 am
Al,
Charlotte is doing a wonderful job and I congratulate its city leaders for putting together a big vision and follow it. The only thing that Raleigh copied from Charlotte, however, is the uncontrolled sprawl, but I can double-triple guarantee you that when Raleigh’s population reaches that of Charlotte, it will feel more urban and more pleasant than the Queen City feels today. I love tall skyscrapers and I hope that Raleigh can do something to attract such monuments of modern engineering, but when it comes to street-level I would not rush to place Raleigh below Charlotte.
With that having been said, it is important that Charlotte continues to strengthen its urban core and Raleigh learns from both the strengths and mistakes of her big sister. Nothing wrong with the biggest city in the state leading the way, and nothing wrong with its smaller siblings learning from its successes and failures. The Queen City, on the other hand, doesn’t exactly have a monopoly in the excitement, with or without Donald Trump building a new tallest for the city. Raleigh, Greensboro, Durham, Winston-Salem, Wilmington, Asheville, Chapel Hill… They all have something exciting to demonstrate and teach to each other, Charlotte included.
May 1st, 2007 at 11:12 am
Hey CoPar,
Well I guess you have not read the latest on Cnn report of the top 10 growing metro areas and of course that charlotte is listed in the top 10 and Raleigh as well but Charlotte will have a biotech park which is currently being built and of course that will bring alot of companies and scientific bio companies to charlotte region and also the high paying jobs…Whether the skyline is big or not and No we are not trying to catch up with Atlanta since we have the down to earth type of atomsphere in the Big QC….Yes, I know the 60 Story building which is the bofa corporate center and you know I can go on and on with this subject buy I have to respect the webpage guy that made this site only for the Raleigh skyline of a little small town…
May 1st, 2007 at 11:35 am
Ok Matt, you need to have one for Charlotte the other sites you have listed are awesome
May 1st, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Al, sorry if my reply to your first message of today seemed a bit harsh, but I don’t understand the defensive attitude of that first one. Why belittle Raleigh? I know many people from Charlotte, because my company operates a large branch there. Most of the ones I know really like their Queen City. Good. Most I know also show respect for Raleigh. There was a big billboard on I-440 last June paid for by the Carolina Panthers. It congratulated the Carolina Hurricanes on winning the Stanley Cup, from one Carolina (team) to another. It was much appreciated. Im glad Charlotte represents the state so well as a big city. Why not just let us Raleigh folk enjoy our downtown’s recent and continuing excellent progress?
May 1st, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Al,
What time does recess start?
Raleigh may not have tall buildings, but it is a very unique city. The city is not primarily based on one industry (financial) like Charlotte is. We have a nice combination of history, government, education, medical, bio-tech, pharmaceuticals, ngo’s (non-profits) and high tech. This diversity of industries provides for a diverse group of people as well: techies, engineers, tree-huggers, PHD’s, and high level business people.
Charlotte is an Atlanta wannabe. Very sterile and money driven. Raleigh has character!
Charlotte does have some nice towers, but otherwise is a bland city.
May 1st, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Yes,
Charlotte does have alot to deal with included light rail projects and traffic and strengthing its urban core but the city is getting alot of advertising especially with the Biotech project coming to town with the triangle univercities which have signed up to be a part of this project…We may not have the Colleges big name ( scandels ) or the Medical facilities ( being sued ) but its a nice city on the rise of being not only a Nascar town ( agh ) but a financial powerhouse along with other large companies on its way….Well, I have said enough and let Raleigh have fun with this exciting news of building up its downtown area like other cities of Winston-Salem my hometown which is doing great
May 1st, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Answer to Bill Bailey,
Raleigh will never have a tall building over 65 Stories…Charlotte Yes but not Raleigh by charlotte being closely behind NYC in financial capital the next tall building with come with a new HQ as Wachovia decides to purchase wells fargo and other banks coming to the QC for Regional HQ to be closely to the New BioTech being built and the money that is in this city..
May 1st, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Al,
You mean to tell me that you haven’t seen the latest proposal?
http://raleighskyline.com/ralchi.jpg
May 1st, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Ok I am sorry but that building is not an actually feel as you can see that will swallow up the whole downtown and I think it will just be useless…..I am sorry that building is tooo large for the dt of raleigh and to think that Morgan Stanley of thinking of putting a regional office in raleigh why is my question because if any investment or brokerage firm would like to be where there is money and close to other brokerage firms to compete more and stating where the convenience of airport and interstates for their employees and clients and a good nite life which charlotte has…The RBC center from what I heard is out in no where and that is why the CIAA decided to move it to Charlotte because again of the convenience of Restaurants, Hotels and Nightlife…As the city builds more buildings and once the Epic Center is open as the advertisement on the CVC is SSSSSSHHHHHHHarlotte….
May 1st, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Why do you intelligent guys continue to patronize this guy (Al Webb) and his neurotic rantings? He obviously feels threaten or jealous or something, or he wouldn’t be posting this crap on a Raleigh skyline website.
Al – Go back to Charlotte with your peeps in the QC and stay out of Raleigh’s business.
May 1st, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Hey Don.,
I am not Jealous at all just proud to be in charlotte and we need one of these websites
May 1st, 2007 at 11:33 pm
Al,
Ive really enjoyed reading this little argument. It was fun to read. You remind me of that annoying kid at the lunch table in 3rd grade who talks a bunch of $#it and nobody cares. You must realize that Raleigh and Charlotte have completely different driving forces. Raleigh; education, technology and government—-Charlotte; banking or whatever. Both cities rank highly in their specific “feilds”. But in the end, you and I and everyone reading this knows that Charlotte has SOLD ITS SOUL for all it has today and everything that goes with it. DT Charlotte, while looking nice and dense with a big skyline, has no history, culture or soul to speak of and if there ever were, we would never know because it was probably trucked of town fifteen years ago in the form of rubble and debris or is now functioning as infill for the Bobcats Arena.
What was it that you missed out on growing up in Winston-Salem. You seem to have little appreciation for anything but what you see on the surface.
Plus, you suck
*Good one Ernest:)
May 1st, 2007 at 11:57 pm
Al,
Why don’t you create a website to fill the need to promote Charlotte. Obviously, Raleigh is ahead of the Queen City in that area – thanks to Matt and Dustin – but this gives you a chance to actually do something for your city. As for us, Raleighites, we are pretty happy where we are. Raleigh has a true city feel, in the sense that we have no need to belittle other areas so we can feel better. This is how real city people think and act, but obviously Charlotte is light years behind Raleigh in that department
May 2nd, 2007 at 1:34 am
all of you guys need to chill out!!! its not tha serious!! raleigh has its advantages and disadvantages as well as charlotte. some advantages of charlotte are: beautiful downtown with everything close proximity, more entertainment nightlife, carowinds,and low cost of living. disadvantages are:TOO segregated, no schools, limited medical facilities, too much violent crime rate…. as for raleigh, advantages:very much diverse and integrated, low crime rate, excellent quality of life, excellent educational facilities and medical facilities. disadvantages: too narrow minded in future planning, limited nightlife, and of course a boring downtown but i will say this…. when charlotte was the size that raleigh is now it was NO WHERE NEAR AS CLOSE TO DOING WHAT RALEIGH IS DOING NOW!!!! lets not forget that charlotte has only revitalized its downtown for the past 10-15 years! even back then charlotte had over 400,000 residents. just imagine what raleigh will look like when it hits that pop in like 2010…… mmmmmmmm pretty impressive!!! and you just wait i bet within another five or seven years raleigh will easily get a pro basketball or football team! at least we have different metros such as rdu, the triad and charlotte area, georgia only has atlanta!!!! nobody even says georgia anymore its just atlanta, im glad people say our entire state instead of just one city. we need to all work together to help all of north carolina thrive not just one city know what i mean… PEACE!!!!
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:06 am
I’m ready to declare peace. Mission accomplished. Maybe just a little wrap-up to go. Yes, Al is about third-grade level (except for writing skills; maybe fourth grade there).
Meanwhile, DTR, solidly to somewht boring only a short time ago, is rapidly beating that rap, especially when Glenwood South is (and legitimately so) included. Not quite sure what the vaunted Charlotte nightlife consists of. Charlotte folk tell me it’s rather routine.
Jazz clubs? Excellent restaurants? Broadway touring shows? Classical music? Music, in fact, of many genre? Outstanding facilities to house them? Great convention center? Art, natural sciences and history museums? Boutique galleries and shops? I’m describing Raleigh, by the way. Wait, back to Charlotte, maybe the night life is about all those Charlotte strip…I mean…”gentlemen’s” clubs? Google says there are about 35 near Charlotte. Poor Raleigh. Afraid we don’t have nearly so many gentlemen here to support all that. Score one for you, Al.
Meanwhile, Part II, isn’t it time for the Reynolds to put up a building or get out of that business? And now it’s only 27 stories??? Hadn’t it gotten as high as 34? Ernest, fill us in.
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:17 am
laryea,
With the exception of your comment on nightilfe – I think Raleigh does very well in that department – I totally agree with what you said. We would have to be blind not to celebrate for the great things that all NC metros are doing these days. Charlotte has shifted the focus of the Finance/Banking world to this state. Uptown is a showroom of great modern architecture. Thanks to Carolina Panthers and NASCAR, NC has become a major sports events destination. Although we cannot give full credit to Raleigh for this, we need to recognize the significance of RTP and the existence of 3 major universities in the area. Carolina Hurricanes certainly brought a major recognition to the area with their winning of 2006 Stanley Cup, and the basketball teams of our 3 universities have represented the Triangle very well – it’s hard not to use the entire Triangle, sometimes. As for nightlife and entertainment, having Glenwood South (also mentioned in the New York Times), The Warehouse District and City Market is not small thing. Sure, we can use more options, but we are certainly not behind Charlotte.
If we do a comparison based on the population figures, then Raleigh is way ahead of where Charlotte was, even when the latter was 500,000 people strong. I cannot predict the future, but what we see today is the creation of a truly organic, mixed-use core, which is precisely what we are trying to accomplish. We are not a city with a strong corporate image, but we are not afraid to play in that arena. The choice to operate in this area by Credit Swisse Boston, Fidelity Investments and possibly Morgan Stanley, show clearly which direction we are going. With the aforementioned entities, more finance services corporations will put Raleigh/Triangle in their map. Who knows, we may get our fair share in the Finance/Banking industry. Having thousands of new, high-paying jobs in Raleigh cannot hurt
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:44 am
DUH,
Sorry for my last post… We both posted something at the same time. Had I seen yours, I would have avoided any further discussion. My apologies.
The Reynolds Tower 1 case confused me and disappointed me, but only in the beginning. After attending the City Council meeting, yesterday, some of my concerns were put to rest. As you already know, we are talking about an overall reduction of 23,000sf and 5 floors off of the original plan. This is not positive, but the project is not really far from the original idea (21-29 floors), as presented several years ago. As a side note, there was even a mention of 37 and 34 floors, but those were early speculations and theoretical stuff. The final design has changed throughout the time. One of the major reasons behind this change is the fact that the originally selected architects – the same that did Quorum Center – were pre-occupied with many ongoing projects, leaving the developers without the experienced team they hoped to use. Reynolds & Reynolds had to interview and select a new architect, with the ability to take the existing vision and work with it to the end. A friend of mine is currently working with one of those candidates and I can tell you this: it was months ago when the interview process began. The official announcement will take place next Monday, though.
Being the optimist that I am, I can go as far as saying that there is a positive twist to this:
1) Increase in the number of residential units.
2) Increase in the number of hotel rooms.
3) No architectural changes.
4) No request for extention, provided that the city officials help to speed up the process.
5) Increased demand for the condos.
6) Desire to build a successful tower, not just an iconic building.
7) Worst case scenario: the tower gets built with the office component, as approved.
Another positive comment appears in the interview by N&O’s Jack Hagel, where Ted Reynolds is quoted to say “To lose this building over a few thousand square feet of offices is stupid”, referring to his decision to keep the office component if the city doesn’t approve the change.
If we truly want to be objective, we also need to recognize that empty offices in this tower would ONLY hurt other projects. Given the amount of new office space under construction and/or in the pipeline, I can see the short term impact. I’d rather see Block “B” getting something very tall than keeping the office component in Reynolds Tower 1. In the long run, it may also be better for Reynolds Tower 2. There is one added benefit: more condos and hotel rooms means more people, and this is just as critical as having available office space. Hopefully, this will be a final, but positive change.
May 2nd, 2007 at 11:19 am
I would also like to point out one thing that many people may not be aware of. There is a very good possibility that Bank of America may at some point in the future, maybe as soon as a 1-2 years, move their corporate headquaters to NYC. They are currently building a tower in Manhattan that is taller than the ones in Charlotte and Atlanta, and by the virtue of it being in NYC, it is obviously much more expensive that the others because of the land prices in NYC. Now why would they invest so much money in a tower in NYC if they weren’t planning on it being a substantial part of the company’s image?
Having said all of that, one can only infer that BOA wants its top executives close to the action on Wall St. By being stuck down in Charlotte, i’m sure that they are missing out on some action, seeing as how Citibank (their biggest competitor) is right there.
I have said all along, Charlotte is building a glass house, and we all know what can happen to glass houses.
May 2nd, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Ernest, your posting was more definitive. Hope we get good news on Monday.
May 2nd, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Don, let’s hope that Bank of America doesn’t move their HQ up in NYC, for the sake of Charlotte and the state of North Carolina. Betting on banks is a very risky move, but somehow I feel that BofA will continue to operate in Charlotte. Not only they are more involved with the community, but also they do not have strong competition in their back yard. I am no expert, so please double check this, but I sense that operating out of Charlotte is cheaper than operating out of NYC.
DUH, thanks!!! I think that R&R will make a very good choice. I do not wish to sound over-optimistic, but the truth of the matter is that both the developers and the city have gone too far to start all over again. A 27-story tower is still far better than anything we have seen since 1991, IMHO. Of course, RBC Plaza will be the king for a while, but who knows what the future holds?
May 2nd, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Of course this is just speculation on my part and by a number of others, so there is no source involved. In terms of them not having strong competition, Wachovia (formerly first union) has always been their chief rival.
I have studied corporate and organizational management, so I know a little bit about how these things operate. It is true that Charlotte is cheaper to operate in than NYC, but i’m certain that the BOA executives have weighed that against the costs of not operating in the top financial destination in the country, if not the world. BOA has reached the size where they really do need to be more accessible globally and domestically, and closer to the center of action. I’m not saying that they would necessarily pull all operations out of Charlotte, but they very well could move their corporate headquaters and leave Charlotte as a regional headquaters.
Again, companies do not build signature towers on mega prime real estate so that they can be underutilized.
May 3rd, 2007 at 8:28 am
Don,
Trust me, you know a lot more than I do about corporate and organizational management. Hey, I cannot even organize my web site
One of the reasons that I do not think BofA will move its HQ to NYC is a long discussion I read some time ago on this speculation. For the life of me, I cannot find that discussion. Yes, it was in a forum, but the points made were very valid and convincing. Of course, even if the HQ was to move, it doesn’t mean that Charlotte would lose a significant amount of BofA employees. The bank can operate with a large number of people in two different areas.
There are two more reasons, although they may not make strong cases. RBC Centura is going to move its U.S. HQ in DT Raleigh, yet the bulk of its employees will stay in Rocky Mount. Since I know that the impact on the latter would have been devastating if all RBC Centura’s employees were relocated to DT Raleigh, I am glad that the bank decided to keep its roots. With all the aquisitions that take place, nobody knows what the future holds, but as is, RBC Centura will only bring 500 people to its HQ. Speculation: Imagine how big the RBC Tower would be if they were to bring the more than 1000 employees from Rocky Mount! I could go as far as saying that a 50-story office tower would have been the minimum.
The second reason is the numerous investments that BofA is currently making in Uptown Charlotte. If I am not mistaken, they are invloved in several projects. Question: Does anyone know if BofA is financing any of the towers under construction, or in the pipeline. With all the residential high-rises coming to Uptown, the opportunity for profits must be very high. Just wondering.
Back to Raleigh, we have been accustomed to smaller towers and a less-than-impressive skyline. Everything at this point sounds good. While some people may find this pathetic, I believe that taking frequent baby steps is just as good as putting 2-3 tall skyscrapers. We are less prone to bubbles and excessive hype. I think we’ll be getting out-of-the-blue announcements more frequently than we can imagine, especially in areas like Glenwood South and the Warehouse District. Both of these districts offer tremendous opportunities for urban infills and redevelopment. By the time we create a strong urban West Downtown, towers above 40 stories will arrive. Local and national developers are slowly (re)discovering DT Raleigh’s potential. We don’t even need a 60-story to make a huge difference. Look at Tampa’s current skyline, and keep in mind that we have already surpassed that city’s population – not its metro population, though. From what I heard, we even have more population in our downtown than Tampa does. By the way, I really like Tampa’s skyline, but I think that they need a few filler high-rises between 15 and 20 floors to complement the rest of the towers. If Raleigh can get 2-3 buildings around 600ft, the skyline will look truly impressive.
May 3rd, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Ernest, come Monday, if there is no announcement on an at least 27-story building I will be thinking that you jinxed it. I saw that the deal says there must be a footprint by October? Scary. October draws nigh (sort of) and that site is far from ready.
May 4th, 2007 at 6:50 am
OK, I see you guys had a great time trashing me down from a 3rd and 4th grader and some writing skills…..Oh yeah to let you know about BOA they are not and will not plan on moving its HQ out of Charlotte…
May 4th, 2007 at 8:32 am
Take heart, Al. Truly, Charlotte has a big-city aura about it — gives a quite positive impression. And after a false start with the Charlotte Coliseum, enough people had the good sense to locate the new arena where it belongs — in the center of things. What a terrible decision made here to put the RBC Center out in the hinterlands. What a terrific boost to DTR if that great arena would have been located where it belongs, DT. A site was under consideration just a stone’s throw from the new convention center.
But back to Charlotte, the ill-advised PR promotion to call Charlotte’s downtown “uptown” speaks so loudly of Hicksville trying to grow up it dims the aura quite a bit. You probably weren’t born yet, but a singer named Petula Clark had a hit song named, “Downtown.” Google it and see why, unless you’re talking about Uptown Manhattan (way up from Wall Street), a city with a great DOWNTOWN should call it just that. A business associate visiting from Pittsburgh once asked me some general questions about Charlotte. To one of these, I answered that the city is proud of the new buildings in its uptown. Puzzled, she asked, “Well, what’s its downtown like?”
May 4th, 2007 at 10:13 am
LH,
R&R have no choice any more. The announcement will be made this Monday, and I already know who the architect will be
Unfortunately, I cannot say anything, except that they are working on at least one more upcoming project for downtown. I took a glimpse at a preliminary Reynolds Tower 1 drawing and I can say that you should not expect anything different from what you have seen already.
Keep in mind what Ted Reynolds said. He and his son are not going to lose this deal if they need to break ground by October and the city needs more time for the approval of the proposed changes. He clearly said that they will move forward with the 32-story version, including the office component, if push comes to a shove. My observation is that what we need is successful projects, not just tall buildings. The difference between 32 and 27 floors is very small when we look at the building from both the ground-level and from a distance. The tragic part would be to build a 32-story tower and have all, or even most of the 160,000sf office space sitting empty. More available office space would definitely hurt projects like Site 1 and Block “B”. We don’t want that. If bringing more condos & hotel rooms, and scaling down by 5 floors is what it takes for this project to be successful, by all means this is what needs to be done. The city can approve the changes at the speed of light and make sure they keep an eye on the progress. Ted Reynolds said that the funding is in place, and I assume he is talking about the worst case scenario (not pre-leased office space included).
I made one error, and possibly one wrong speculation. R&R do not own the western third of that block. It belongs to a group of attorneys, but R&R maybe part of that group, I do not know. Also, I was misled by the rendering and made a wrong speculation… kind of. Reynolds Tower 1 will take up almost 2/3 of the block, not half of it. The ability to place a truly tall building on the remaining block does exist, but it’s very slim, unless they do something like RBC Plaza. Technically, they can build a 40+ story tower, but given the difficulties to recruit large office tenants, I do not see how they can deliver such a large tower. Unless of course they pull a miracle with Morgan Stanley!!!
Yet-another long post from Ernest has reached its end
May 4th, 2007 at 10:24 am
build and they will come…Other companies that want to relocate for cheaper real estate and if there is need in an area that they are looking for and the cost is not that much, depends on the cost per sq footage then it will be easy for a company to relocate in that building…
May 4th, 2007 at 10:56 am
A little long maybe, Ernest, but at least it was coherent.
I look forward to getting good news on Monday.
May 4th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Ok I have noticed that you guys were saying how charlotte does not have a culture or nightlife and here are a few samples that I might like for you to know if you even care, Bluemental performing arts center, The carolina renaissance festival, charlotte, museum of history, the charlotte comedy center, childrens theatre of charlotte, ImaginOn, levine musuem of the south, Mint Museum, Discovery place,Carolinas aviation museum, Verizon Amphitheater, US National Whitewater Center, Lowes Motor Speedway, Nascar Hall of Fame, North Carolina Opera House, North Carolina Dance Theater and should I go on?
May 4th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Al? Didn’t see anyone really trash Charlotte’s nightlife, unless you count DUH’s saying that someone from Charlotte described it as routine. Rather, there were some good listings, not at all complete, of Raleigh’s excellent nightlife and facilities, especially for a city of its size. I’ve been to Charlotte’s wonderful Mint Museum, though never at night. I bet it rocks after dark. Why don’t we all agree to change the subject back to good ol’ tall buildings. But if you insist on getting the last word in, I (and of course I can only speak for me), am willing to let you have it.
May 4th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
I love Tall Buildings it brings a solid ground to the dt area and a great conversational piece
May 7th, 2007 at 9:14 am
A general observation: If we get so many condos in the CBD, it will no longer be the Central Business District
I remember my first visit to the downtowns of Bethesda and Chevy Chase, in Maryland, and how impressed I was with the mixed-use of those areas. At least, this is how they felt to me. I think Raleigh’s current CBD can benefit from a shift to include more residential space, even if it loses the “B” from the CBD 
It has been estimated by the city officials that in the next few years the population on Fayetteville Street, alone, will be 750 residents, which is derived by using a conservative formula of 1.4 people per unit. I am sure this includes proposals and conversions we are not aware of.
Let’s see if Reynolds & Reynolds will announce the new architectural firm for Reynolds Tower 1 today
May 7th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Al: Clearly, you are right. Conversation galore.
Ernest: So if CBD doesn’t work, let’s just go with DT. But there is a lot of business taking place DT. It will be a long time, if ever, before RDT becomes a RETAIL center again. Although it’s not out of the question. Visiting Indianapolis a couple of months ago, I was rather astonished at the changes there. A decade and more ago, retail deserted Indy CBD like crazy headed for the zillions of loutlying malls and shopping centers. Now, there has been a tremendous resurgence of retail, along with overhead street crossings and other ammenitites. Though hard to envision now (as such a thing once was in Indianapolis) maybe someday there will be a Belk once more serving the thousands of DT condo dwellers, toruists and convention goers. Whether that happens or not, I’m confident an energizing and entertaining increase in DT boutiqes, galleries, etc. is on the way. Along with the new restaurants, the new hotels, convention center and condos, the demand WILL exist.
As far as an R&R announcement today…Ernest, you were awfully confidenct last week. I’m waiting…
May 8th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Ok, So, what is going on with this Reynolds Tower and who are they? Now Charlotte has a little retail uptown but that is going to change once the Epic Center is open and a 50th story condo and hotel on top of the center is completed…
May 8th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Al, you may like this site. Maybe you’ve already seen it.
http://www.city-data.com/city/Charlotte-North-Carolina.html
Don’t know where Ernest is, today. Still waiting for an announcement? The Reynolds. I understand, are father and son developers who recently completed the mixed-use, 15-story Quorum Center at Glennwood South, and who, Ernest said, were to announce their architect yesterday for the tower they are to build at Hillsborogh and Dawson, the height of which has been described as short as 27 and as tall as 32 stories. According the agreement with the city, the building is to be started by October. There is still a short-rise, but multi-story building that has to go away first. The planned building has been on and then off and then on and then etc. for what seems like the last half-century, give or take a few decades. Despite the snide tone I am affecting here, I wish these folks the very best. The site is at one of the highest elevations downtown and even just a 27-story tower will look very good there.
May 8th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
I am here!!!! Can’t post every day, guys. The announcement was to be made to the city, not to the public. Eventually, someone will publish it, officially – I wish I could, but I would betray a friend’s trust – but until then I have no authorization to even mention anything. Sorry, but I have to think about my long term relationship with the people that give me information. Just be patient… The architectural firm R&R selected is not a small one, nor a newcomer to big developments. They have experience and know-how.
Again, this project is not going to be stalled, or cancelled, unless the city desides not to finalize the sale. Going from 31 stories (the 13th floor was not be included in the original 32-story version) down to 27 is not a big deal, especially when more residential, hotel and retail space is included. Reynolds & Reynolds is a smaller, local developer, trying to build big things. A bit lack of experience, a little lack of luck, and any project can easily be stalled. Hopefully, we are not looking into any further delays. CoPar is right, the whole thing feels more like half-century, and I hope that no more complications appear in the horizons.
May 8th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Yeah, found that one on google the other day but thanks
May 8th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Maybe the Reynolds guys need to come to charlotte and build one of course they will be approved
May 8th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
i wish they wouldnt tell you about any project in dt until it has been reviewed by the city and ready for approval. i hate hearing about it and then it takes them like 4 years to finally approve it and build it!!!! THAT IS VERY ANNOYING!!!!
May 8th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
I hear you… The problem is that this project was first announced in late 1999/early 2000. Then, 9-11 came and the plan was shelved. Sadly, the developers didn’t quite do their homework, but they had new deadlines to deal with. I still do not see why in the Earth they insist on selling the office space instead of leasing it, but I guess they need cash for something more profitable, and hopefully bigger. In the meantime, we are waiting in agony.
May 16th, 2007 at 7:13 am
Hear that? The silence is deafening.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:00 am
What kind of noise did you expect, LH? Some answers will be provided as early as next week
In the meantime, make plans to attend the Downtown Home Tour this coming Saturday.
May 16th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Bells ringing and whistles blowing, Ernest.
“SOME ANSWERS WILL BE provided AS EARLY AS NEXT WEEK,” you write. Ernest, my friend, are you preparing to announce your candidacy for president? That’s a mightily equivocal statement, hey?
SOME will sure sounds like some won’t. I wonder which side of that scale will bear the most weight. Okay let’s give you that. Answers do often beget new questions. But how about finishing off the “AS EARLY AS NEXT WEEK” equation. Do I hear an “…OR AS LATE AS 2012.” (smiley face)
With only a little added disappointment, the stress may cause me to forsake my passion for DTR tall buildings. Probably not. the Downtown Home Tour sounds interesting. Will anyone show a computer-generated view of the city from a Reynolds Tower condo?
May 18th, 2007 at 8:33 am
Hold on now, LH, don’t be to hard on Ernest. He brings us a lot of good info.
May 18th, 2007 at 8:56 am
Quite rightr, quite right…my post to Ernest was meant light-heartedly, and I appreciate his info. So I pledge a renewed faith in an ever-blossoming Raleigh skyline, looking forward with hope to many exciting announcements over the next few weeks…well, months…or whatever: Lafayette and Site 1 project-site problems solved, construction to begin immediately, 30 and 16-story towers for that Progress Engergy block (foreget what it’s called), a Reynolds tower of 27-32 stories, a 25-story Winston on Hillsborough full of condos and hotel rooms, and a 61-story tower for Morgn Stanley on an appropriate underused or vacant DT lot.
May 19th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Now what makes you think that Morgan Stanley will put a 60+ blding in dtr
May 19th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
LH, I think that your faith in DT Raleigh is getting weak
There is a ton of good stuff coming to DT Raleigh that MOST of us cannot begin to imagine. Even the “rumors” that come my way are only a drop in the ocean comparing to what we’ll hear of in the next 5-6 years. Spreading rumors may create some enthusiasm to most, but I must also respect the goals of this site. Having me posting here all the time about what would come to downtown may easily be seen as promoting my website or even a certain urban forum, where I post frequently and more ideas are exchanged.
Did anyone of you guys go to the Downtown Home Tour? I certainly did and loved it!!! Lots of good information and I had the chance to speak with some developers and real estate agents. Much of what I heard was known, but some new material was offered. Hopefully, Matt took the same tour. I say this because most of my photos were a disaster
Stupid me, I forgot to adjust my aperture. Don’t ask me why. It was pathetic when I downloaded my photos on my PC and saw how dark they turned 
Please, Matt, tell me that you have some photos from the tour.
Some updates:
1) Boylan Flats is reduced to 5 floors and 9 condos. Financing was the issue.
2) They are getting ready to resume work on Bloomsbury Estates.
3) Lafayette should break ground ~12 months from now, with completion date sometime in mid-to-late 2010.
4) The Blount Street redevelopment project has a website: http://www.blountstreetcommons.com.
5) Reynolds Tower 1 is now filed under the name “The Hillsborough” and it is listed as a 278,000+ square feet project, which means it will be of decent size when compared to the previous incarnation. The final height will actually be 28 floors, if we count the mechanical room at the top.
One correction: I made a little mistake concerning the dates and I gave you some wrong information. My “as early as next week” comment was actually for the following week. My mistake
Concerning Block “B”, there is one little detail that I had missed. The original vision included two high-rises and one taller mid-rise. So, do not be surprised if you see two towers of decent height and something around 15 floors. I do not wish to spread any rumors or create false hopes, but there is a very good chance we’ll see not two, but three towers in the Block “B”/PEIII/Progress Plaza North section. Rumor has it that some of the properties not officially part of the deal may also be sold, adding more land to the entire project. If this is true, then the sky is the limit.
Morgan Stanley is a possibility, as long as they don’t make an announcement that they selected a location outside DT Raleigh, or even outside the Triangle. The company’s needs would be served well with a 40-story tower, but everybody knows that between future expansion and additional office space, such a tower could exceed 50 floors. For now, we can only cross our fingers that Morgan Stanley chooses DT Raleigh. How tall the tower will be is another story.
May 20th, 2007 at 6:06 am
I really hope the Dorthea Dix is FULLY developed for retail/residential/commercial uses. I mean, Downtown Raleigh has made some strides, but there needs to be more than just Glenwood South. People that want Dix to be all “greenspace” are hopelessly missing the point. We need things in Downtown Raleigh that will attract people to it. A park ain’t gonna do it. By the way, we already have a nice park in Ralieigh, it’s called Umstead Park.
May 20th, 2007 at 10:24 am
Steve,
I am very frustrated and sometimes upset with the “my way or no way at all” crowd that pushes for a huge park in an area that already has Pullen Park in the vicinity. Not to mention Umstead Park, which they seem to ignore discussing, as if it doesn’t exist. The park idea supporters have probably never really looked from the top of one of our high-rises, or never took a flight above Raleigh. Had they done so, they would have been concerned about the clear-cutting, which costs us far more acres of green space than the loss of the entire Dorothea Dix campus would. Personally, I favor several manageable parks around the city than 1-2 larger ones. I must say though, it will be nice if we save some of Dorothea Dix for a park, or a botanical garden, so we can satisfy most folks in Raleigh and create additional destinations.
Another opportunity for urbanization will come from the areas surrounding Dorothea Dix, particularly to the East, South and South-East. If both city officials and current residents act together, that area can flourish with new development. I am anxious to see some nice urban neighborhoods, built with character. I don’t promote the displacement of the current population, just some good infills that could boost the value of that area and help it grow in a nice manner.
There is a vision for a nice-sized parcel near Dorothea Dix, which could potentially include two 28-story and two 37-story residential towers, with lots of retail!!! This is not proposed by a developer, but by a consulting firm. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to speak with a developer and he mentioned to me that the city officials are going to gather many interested parties and gather more ideas for that parcel. I can’t say how far into the future we are looking before we see this vision materializes, but it is already there. By the way, the aforementioned developer had no idea about the specifics of this proposal, which means that a lot of people will be caught by surprise, assuming that the vision I know of will be the one to be presented to them. We’ll see.
May 20th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Al, hard to believe you could ask trhat. Go back to sleep, Al.
May 20th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Ernest,
I’m afraid I can’t wait as long as you. I’m in my 70s. Mid to late 2010 for the Lafayette — It could be a lifetime away. I will try to be content with just the announcements and not the sights. But I’m sure what you predict is on the way.
May 20th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
hey LH it aint just you… i cant wait that long either… and im only 27 years old!!!!!! why so damn long for the lafayette???!!! i thought they said january 0f 2008…. maaaan i tell you, 2010 is too long!!!!!! are you serious!!! its not that big of a project, by that time they’ll probably be over halfway finished with developing block B… now thats a large project that i can understand will take a while to develop!! the lafayette is just one building!!!! cmon!!!!
May 20th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
LH, I had no idea that you were in your 70′s. I thought that patience becomes a virtue with age
Trust me, you will see a lot more before you lose interest in urban developments in Raleigh 
I will be 40 this summer and while not patient by nature, I know that good things are coming to those who wait. Discussing these projects every day makes things worse, I am afraid.
laryea, when I heard that we should be seeing Lafayette’s groundbreaking about a year from now, I couldn’t believe it!!! However, building successful projects is far more important than just putting something in place. Remember that Empire Properties is more into renovations and less about high-rise developments. This company has 3 more properties that it is working on redeveloping, two of which could be high-rises. The more successful Lafayette becomes, the more Empire Properties will be able to invest on other projects. Another important thing: Empire Properties’ goal is to ensure that flippers do not put their hands on the condo units. This makes things a bit more challenging. Between some environmental clean-up on the site and submission of final plans, it is understood why this project takes longer. Still, I wish they had already started construction. The developer is also working on the L Building, at the SW corner of Davie and McDowell streets. They probably want to get it under way before turning their full attention to Lafayette.
May 21st, 2007 at 1:36 pm
I must say, I truly enjoy the discussions here. I also become disappointed when projects become stalled, and when that happens I try to focus my attention on the projects that are under construction and hope that Raleigh will soon follow through on stalled and envisioned projects. I enjoy your input/insight Ernest and I love hearing your opinions/feelings about DTR Laryea, and just reading what the regulars have to say…Copar, LH…etc.
I honestly beleive Raleigh will become one of the leaders of metropolitan cities of the future, but would like for it to come just a bit sooner.
May 31st, 2007 at 10:15 am
Ernest,
C’mon, now. You’re last posting was 11 days ago! Think of the disappointment you’re causing Emanuel who so kindly expressed his enjoyment of these discussions. He’s probably given up. I realize you’re not alone in abandoning this site, but gee whiz… (I’m allowed to use that expression at my age.) You have clearcut obligations here, dude. (I can say that, too. I’m authorzed — as Lennie sometimes avers on the older, good Law and Order segments.) Surely you possess tantalizing, titillating, tidbits of news regarding progress, or the lack thereof, on new soaring skyline structures. (I’m even allowed to overdo alliteration.)
June 1st, 2007 at 9:39 pm
i’m a Raleigh native who has moved to NYC but i take pride in the goings on in my home town. I have seen multiple posts comparing Raleigh to Charlotte. Charlotte has a few tall buildings but the city is little more than a big country town with a couple of signature big banks, home of televangelists and stock car racing. With RTP, the triangle uniiversities and the most educated metropolis in the south per capita, Raleigh should set itself to a higher standard that comparing itself to Charlotte. Tall buidings do not a “big city” make.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:19 pm
yo anonymous…. i totally agree!!!!! i’ve been tryin to tell people that raleigh shouldnt compare itself to charlotte! charlotte IS NOT a metropolis!!! its just a big country city in the south!! raleigh should look at places like DC, philly, atl, houston, ny, boston and see how they put their downtowns together because these are real metro areas that have succeeded in doing so!!! charlotte is fine but thats kinda like raleigh trying to compare itself to nashville, memphis or new orleans, all are big cities but are not very large metros!! they all succeeded by taking what they do best in those areas and PUSHING IT TO THE LIMIT!!! nashville and memphis boast their music scenes there and new orleans is known for its mardi gra and various festivals…. raleigh should push its education facilities and atmosphere and promote this as its identity, if we do this just imagine how we could succeed!!! then charlotte would REALLY have compitition!!!!!!
June 4th, 2007 at 11:29 am
I couldn’t agree with you guys more. Charlotte does have an impressive skyline, but in terms of the aspects that trully make a city great, it is lacking. I think that the dynamics and culture of Charlotte will always give it that big “country” feel.
June 4th, 2007 at 11:41 am
laryea,
Please… You’re going to get Al all stirred up again, and he’s going to go back to writing more things copied from the Charlotte tourism bureau’s web site.
I agree, though perhaps not quite so enthusiastically as laryea (five exclamation points are an awfully lot) that Anonymous has made some excellent comments. Your points are good, too learyea!!
June 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Good points from Don, too. But there’s really no need to cast aspersions at Charlotte. It can’t help it. Couple years or so back, the Wall Street Journal, I think it was, did a feature story on major league spectator sport franchises being a significant measure of a city’s overall strength as a metropolis. The publication was counting as major the NFL, NBA, MLB and the NHL. Charlotte’s got two. So does Indianapolis, Nashville, Cincinnati, St. Louis and dozens more, I reckon. Let’s see, Pittsburg and Cleveland has three. Atlanta has four. Chicago has five as does New York. I have no idea where I’m going with this. I think I’ll just stop.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Why is Raleigh constantly comparing itself to Charlotte? Shouldn’t you be comparing yourselves to a city more like Raleigh such as Winston-Salem? Charlotte is way above you guys in every way!! Just accept it and move on!!!
June 6th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Charlotte is above itself, but doesn’t realize it. Why are there so many people from Charlotte viewing photos and commenting on a Raleigh website???
June 7th, 2007 at 1:12 am
just like i said before NORTH CAROLINA IS ALL THE SAME DAMMIT!!! instead of downing our cities and comparing them we should be trying to work together and promote nc instead of feuding like women and downing the opposite cities! but for the record… CHARLOTTE AINT THAT SPECIAL MAAAAAAN! just wait til raleigh gets the size charlotte is now… it will overtake it in every aspect! its downtown will probably surpass charlottes when it reaches its size. a few tall buildings doesnt make it so much better than raleigh. whenever you ask people what does charlotte have better than raleigh thats all they can say (a few tall buildings) thats so lame…and keep in mind rdu is growing much faster than the charlotte area so somethin in this area is attracting people to it, and also remember… charlotte is almost twice the size of raleigh…. ITS SUPPOSE TO HAVE MORE THAN RALEIGH!!
June 7th, 2007 at 9:03 am
Raleigh deserves it….it’s about time.
Now if we can get the Fayetteville skyline to look nicer….the downtown is getting much better.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:42 am
LH: St. Louis has three major Pro sports teams: Cards, Rams, Blues.
Also, Raleigh will never be like any of the Northeast and Rust Belt cities. Those cities took off in the 19th century and still have buildings and/or neighborhoods from that era. They will always be more urban. Raleigh just needs to add a few tall buildings in the Fayetteville St and Hillsborough St areas so that the skyline is more representative of the city. The most important thing for the greater downtown Raleigh area is to continue the density build up with more condos, apartments, stores, art galleries, bars, and restraurants. Hopefully, in about 10-15 years, all of the following areas will be developed with mid-rise and low-rise city-like development: warehouse district, all of Glenwood South, all of Peace St. from the Gov. Complex to Glenwood, 4 to 5 blocks east of the city market area, and the area south of Memorial Auditorium.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:37 am
Whats up everyone, been a while since my last post (been in Europe).
Im really delightfully amuzed at how this discussion board has progressed:)
Steve,
I beleive that it is you that may be hopelessly missing the point about Dix Park. I dont think you understand the concept of a “world class” destination park. I dont beleive that ALL the land should go for a park, just most of it. Think of the possiblities of what the city could do with this land. When I think of what the city should do, the term “competitive advantage” comes to mind. What could the city put on this land to make an urban park that is different and better than any other in the south, if not the country. With all this land, the possibilities are endless. The more the city puts into the extravance of the use of this land the more they will get in return. What I like to imagine is: with the land fill land where the soccer feilds are now, a large world class botanical garden divided into seven sections that could represent gardens and plantlife from all the different continents around the world with a large musical fountain in the center like the one in Las Vegas. On the main campus near the old hospital building there should be a tall observation deck that comes out just above the trees so that everyone can go up and observe a panoramic view of Raleighs ever expanding skyline, and maybe top it with a large statue of Sir Walter (the city IS named for him) and an ampitheatre for the symphony to play at in warmer seasons. For the large open feild just south of the main part of the campus should be left as is, and should remain virgin ground forever. All land outside the above mentioned areas should be gridlined and sold. Im well aware that huge ideas such as these will cost money, but once a world class destination park is established and becomes a huge tourist attraction, think of the land value around it. People will pay top dollar for the land and want the largest return on their investment, therefore building big and building up. Years in the future, when central prison has worn out its welcome as a “central” prison and moves elsewhere, think of the value of the land along with the feild that belongs to the school for the blind. Thats prime real estate for highrise condos and hotels, right there next to the botanical gardens (or whatever). With this land, Raleigh could boost its tourism. For the surrounding area, it could become a destination, where people come to spend weekends and depending on how great we make this park, a possible destination known the entire country over if not the world.
Pullen park is great, but its not big enough. Umstead is great too, but can you walk there from your condo in dtr? Is this not what we want? To have a strong, urban downtown with a centralized population, who love their city because of the wonderful quality of life and where great attractions and things to see are. It makes me sick that Raleigh has this horrible habit of outsourcing great things that make great cities to other cities or outlying areas: RBC center; cowfeild, NC Zoo; Asheville, NC Aquariums; Kure beach, NC Museum of Art; cowfeild, ect. Can we not have a centrally located “something” that would make us more of a city?
We could use this land for full development, but Im afraid it will not be like some think. I beleive we would see the worst use of the land possible, almost reminiscent of the government complexes north of the legislative building. Raleigh isnt ready to develope this land to reach its full potential. It would take away from downtown and ultimately create a more sprawling downtown with mediocre midrises. If this land were suddenly made available in NYC and developed, certainly they would build some of the biggest highrises we could ever wish for. But, they would probably realize its value and build a world class destination park.
Im very sorry to go on for so long, but I worry that Raleigh is not thinking smart enough or big enough. We just need to think of what we can do with the land that will make people want to come downtown, and a sprawling urban neighborhood will not do that. We need to stick to our roots! Raleigh was once described by a visitor to the city as, “A city in a park”, and that is what made it so wonderful. If we take out the park, we are left with just city with no real character or way to distinguish ourselves from any other city on a national level.
Ill just go ahead and stop here.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:46 am
No one chooses to live in Raleigh, they just end up their because of their jobs. You never hear of people saying “I LOVE RALIEGH”. Everyone there seem sooooooo depressed. Why do you all constantly compare yourselves to us? Like I said you all are more like Winston-Salem…. Give them the chance to rebuttal. Charlotte is more like Atlanta in a different league then you guys. Get over yourself, and remember you are more like Winston-Salem, NOT Charlotte!!!
June 7th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
G – you sound so uneducated, and what you say is definitely false. I have met many, many people that tell me they have chosen to move to Raleigh because of all that it offers, and they are not worried about finding jobs because there are plenty of jobs in the area.
Why do you even care how Raleigh is perceived by its inhabitants or by the outside public? Why not just worry about Charlotte and its fragile image? As a matter of fact, most Atlantans consider Raleigh more like them than Charlotte.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
I sound so uneducated!?! Because I am pointing out the obvious, I am from Atlanta orginally and chose Charlotte over Raleigh because of the closeness in size. If I wanted to house livestock in my house like they do in Apex, a Raleigh suburb I would have moved there. Who does that? All I am saying is why do you guys compare yourself to Charotte or Atlanta? Why not Greensboro or Winston-Salem? They are more in your league than Charlotte or Atlanta is.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
G,
Quit comparing Charlotte and Atlanta. Charlotte is not in Atlanta’s league. Atlanta is a real city. Charlotte is about as boring as it gets in this country. It’s about as much fun as Bismarck, North Dakota. The only thing Raleigh and Winston-Salem currently have in common is the skyline. And that won’t last long.
June 7th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
I agree with G, I am a native of Raleigh and I hate it here. Charlotte is more like Atlanta and Raleigh is more like Greensboro. I went to school in Charlotte and it had a lot going on for itself, such as downtown, southend, and NoDa arts district. We don’t have that here, Raleigh has a lot to catching up to do…
June 7th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
See even your own natives agree! Raleigh is a lot like Winston Salem. You just don’t want to admit it!
June 7th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
WOW!!! What a discussion. I live in NYC, but I always frequent this site and a few other Raleigh sites simply because I love the city. I am currently in the process of buying real estate in Raleigh while maintaining my resisdency here in NYC. I find that Raleigh already has a great foundation to becoming an awesome metropolitan city, and it seems that it’s finally going to reflect that visually for all to see. I chose Raleigh b/c I see that in about 10 – 20 years it will be reflective of a CAPITAL CITY beyond any of the locals’ imagination. The population is on the path to warrant a metro city and the rest will surely follow. Raleigh is bursting with potential. I just hope the city planners/developers do justice to the city, and also seek help form those who are known for BIG CITY development, b/c by living outside of the city, BIG CITY developres can see things for the city natives can’t and together with the natives of Raleigh, they can maximize the potential of Raleigh. I know of several people who chose to live in Raleigh, from Chicago, NYC, LA, Minneapolis and ATLANTA for various reasons, but they all have one reason in common…there is something about Raleigh that reminds them of their own BIG CITY hometown. Raleigh is already on it’s way…..and only the sky is the limit.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Why do we even have to respond to such idiotic comments as those left by people like Al and G. They are obviously uneducated people who have nothing with substance to back up their comments and are obviously just trying to disrupt the discussion and anger people for whatever it’s worth to them. Why else would they be on a website about Raleigh? We dont need to defend ourselves, we have a great city that speaks for itself already. I beleive that the not so distant future will also prove these sceptics wrong.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
You’ve made my point precisely Emanuel and Don. Raleigh is on its way to greatness and the folks down in Charlotte is sensing it. I grew up in Raleigh, moved up north 7 years ago, then moved to California 3 years ago, with no intentions of looking back at NC. When I started looking at investment property around the country in emerging markets, every source that I looked at showed Raleigh was the place to buy. That sentiment was also backed up by comments that i’ve heard from people in CA, NJ, NY, PA, CT, MA, etc.
I have traveled extensively both domestically and internationally, and have explored many cities. I can say for certain that Raleigh has a certain aura that draws people in. I’m not sure what it is, but people seem to instantly fall in love with this place. I certainly don’t get that feeling when i’m in Charlotte. I feel like I need to flee as quick as possible so that I don’t get shot, or robbed, or gropped.
There are many reasons why people are choosing to move to Raleigh, but nevertheless, the city is growing by leaps and bounds. Charlotte is also growing, but we must keep in mind that Charlotte has continued to annex land in order to reach its current population, while Raleigh is basically growing organically.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:43 am
your from atlanta and your saying that charlotte is close to atlanta in size!! atl’s metro is 4 million plus, charlottes isnt even 2 million! look i’ve lived in charlotte before as well as newark, philly and dc and i can tell you this…. there are so many people in those places that say that they came to raleigh, AND LOVED IT!! CHARLOTTE HAS A WEIRD ORA ABOUT IT AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT! its always been the outkast in nc. you must’ve lived in atl for 10 days and then moved to charlotte or something! im not knocking charlotte but man, you hear more about the rdu area than charlotte, you guys cant even bring the professional title back to your home town, OH AND YOU GOT SO CLOSE TOO, THATS WHAT MAKES IT SO BAD, mmmmmm we brought ours back baby!! (sorry guys i got a little carried away on that one!!)
June 8th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Clearly Raleigh has something for everyone. Why else would people from other cities invest so much time connecting to Raleigh websites just to spit such negative comments about Raleigh. Raleigh is by far, the city that everyone either loves to hate, hates to love, or just want to be apart of.
Bottom line…no matter what your reason is for coming to these RALEIGH SITES……You are here….and should you choose to respond negatively to what I’ve just said or read it without responding…you’re still here, so ENJOY!!!!! I know I do.
Laryea…continue to get get carried away as you put…..I love it. A city worth having is worth the fight.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
I was born and raised in Atlanta moved here with my job. Raleigh doesn’t even have a million so lets not go there. Its a DUMP! Look at it! Who would live in a city that looks like crap? I know I wouldn’t, I had to work in Raleigh for a month and I had to go on so many anti depressants to get through it. I just feel sorry for you who have to live there…. Good Luck! You will need it!
June 8th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
G – Allow me to educate you on the populations of the metro areas of Raleigh and Charlotte. First off, Charlotte city limits is almost twice the size of Raleigh because Charlotte is so insecure about being the big souless country town that it is that the city has annexed almost all of Mecklenburg country. Raleigh has more larger satellite cities than Charlotte which is why both Mecklenberg county and Wake county are basically the same size at about 700,000. But the metro tells the tale and it seems you are over estimating Charlotte’s metro size at 2 million and under estimating Raleigh’s size at less than a million. What’s my source? The US census 2000 http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdf Hate to burst your bubble G but Charlotte is only 1,499,293 and Raleigh is over 1 million at 1,187,941 – 34th largest and 41st largest US metro respectively….not that far apart. But the most telling number is the percentage population increase from 1990-2000 which was 29% increase for Charlotte and 38%.
Just a matter of time before Raleigh surpasses Billy Graham’s home town to become the largest metro in the Carolinas.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
…even the metropolitan area names do have quite the same cache do they? Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill sounds forward thinking and progressive where as Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill SC sounds country and backward. That close to South Carolina what would you expect?
June 8th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
you musta been in charlotte like only two years or so cause i can tell you this homeboy… CHARLOTTE WAS A BIG DUMP, I MEAN BIG ONE TEN YEARS AGO!! it was a big city that was a big dump! charlotte just starting building up like 15 years ago, but it was suppose to because at that time it was already a medium size to large city, besides if you take away charlottes downtown, then what do you have… BS!!!! raleigh’s downtown isnt developed like charlottes and yet people still love raleigh and see many things it has to offer,they love raleigh’s charm and once the downtown gets developed thats just icing on the cake buddy! besides you said you moved to charlotte for a job when your the same one who said that people only come to raleigh for jobs… WHAT A HYPOCRITE!!!
June 8th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Seriously, why did this discussion have to decline into a Charlotte/Raleigh battle?
June 9th, 2007 at 12:09 am
G,
You obviously see Raleigh as a threat to your Charlotte bubble, otherwise you woud not be responding to a website dedicated to Raleigh. If Charlotte is so great, then why reduce yourself and your city so, trying to downplay Raleigh if it is nothing more than,”Winston Salem” like. You are a narrow minded person who sees a city’s worth based on how many tall buildings it has downtown, when, clearly there is more to cities than that.
This website is dedicated to a discussion of Raleigh and its future, so why do you keep on blogging in with your irrelevant opinions on how much better Charlotte supposedly is? Oh yeah, I already answered that; Because you see Raleigh’s progress as a threat.
So, if Raleigh is nothing more than you say it is, then shut up with your stupid opinions because I can guarantee you they are not facts.
June 9th, 2007 at 12:38 am
Going forward, I say that we just ignore any comments from G or Al (or any other Charlotte entity for that matter). As we have pointed out, this site is dedicated to Raleigh and its progress, not to Charlotte and its inferiority complexes.
June 9th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
I agree with Don
June 9th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Have ya’ll ever checked out the view from the end of Lake Wheeler Road that runs along side Dorthea Dix? I think this could become the best view considering the fact that we might have two more towers built behind BB&T from the SSaunders view.
June 10th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Does anyone know if Raleigh has broken ground and starting building the Soleil building and in the North Hills area yet? Also, is the Sheraton Hotel doing any reconstruction?
June 10th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
Ive only heard things about the sheraton, but Im hoping for the best. As far as the other two, no.
June 11th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Matt and I recorded the last RalSky Podcast in the Sheraton and I think they had some renovation signs in the lobby. I’m not sure what they are working on.
As for the Soleil Center, last time I drove by it, nothing was going on. It looks like they are still pushing dirt around. Construction out of the central downtown area gets little attention it seems. I don’t know what their deal is. Lets see a little structural steel at the least, for our amusement.
June 11th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Thanks guys! JRD, I heard something about the Sheraton, now that you mention it. I suppose they are waiting for the Marriott to complete it’s construction. Weren’t they going to build a new one right next to it, or add some height to it? Well, with the Marriott on it’s way and if they Lafayette EVER breaks ground, they are starting to feel pressure to maintain business, and with that hopefully that means major improvements in and out and hopefully for the skyline that means adding more floors to the property. I am all too excited for Raleigh to become a DESTINATION city.
June 11th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
yeah i heard a while back that some company from florida was going to buy the sheraton and build a 31 story addition to it… now that would really be interesting. so far we got the rbc headq, mattiott, reynolds, site 1 (hopefully soon), lafayette (quit bssin), west, a possible 25 story hotel, block b and another 20 story hotel around morgan st… come on raleigh dont fail us now!
June 11th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
What about the block that progress energy is leveling? Arent there 2 more highrises going up there? I heard something like a 15 and a 30. (Which unfortunately due to location might not be in the money shot) But still.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:17 am
yep i know there will def be a 30 story building and they are tryin to decide how tall the other one wil be…. i heard something like 15-20 stories, either way it will fill in that GREAT BIG empty space between the wachovia center and the rest of the skyline.
June 12th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I kinda feel like its location will only add density to the southern F-street skyline. The only thing that will be filling any gap that exists will be rbc, and then still, theres still a gap.
I really wish someone would come along and build something taller than 30 or so stories. I feel like the more of our buildings that are built around the same height, the stranger it will look when someone builds taller, like say 40 or 50 stories.
I still cant wait to see the drawings for these new towers, especially the 30 story one. Does anyone know if or when they will come up with any sketches for us to drool over for the next ten years. Lol!
June 12th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Asking for sketches my be too much for Raleigh to give us, with their inconsistency and all…lol. JRD you are right about the south end, it will definetly fill it nicely, and about the Wachovia building out there all alone. I too would love to see 3 towers at least 60 stories tall strategically placed in the money shot to finally add the beginning of the finishing touches to the city…if that makes sense. If we have towers at that height, they all won’t have to be placed along F street to be seen in the money shot, or any shot of the city. I was viewing the live cam set up by the convention center and there seems to be SOME progress going on at Site 1. Can anyone confirm that? Laryea after you stated all the projects DTR has actively going on( to some degree), I see we have more to look forward to than just RBC, and Marriott.(YEA). I know some of my questions may seem obvious, but I live in NYC and am at a disadvantage by not being able to drive by the sites myself…sorry! I am still thrilled about Raleigh’s progress and will soon have a 2 resisdence there, as well as NYC! With all the developments on the south end…we may have to find a new MONEY SHOT that shows DTR’s growth.
Thanks again for the responses to my inquiries!!
June 13th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
WARNING: Since I haven’t posted for a while, expect this post to be long
Emanuel, if you want to see some construction update photos, you may check out a section I have dedicated to the latter. (Matt and Dustin: feel free to alter my message if you find the link below to be self-promotion, I will understand.)
http://www.raleighmsa.com/constructionUpdates-DowntownRaleigh.html
Site 1 is currently being used for equipment and material “repository”. It appears that all the weight has fallen on finishing the hotel and the parking deck below the extention of Fayetteville Str. Once they are done, they will focus on Site 1. Yesterday I noticed that one of the three cranes at South End was replaced by a smaller one, which tells me that we are a little closer to the final section of the underground deck. However, there are some ongoing legal issues that prevent Site 1 from breaking ground and they have to do with the existing, adjacent underground parking, in front of One Hannover Square. once those issues are removed – they will be – we’ll see major progress. This delay is not because the developers have stalled, but the project’s delivery date may be shifted by a year, or so.
Currently, there are three important – skyline altering – projects under way: RBC Plaza, Marriott Hotel and West At North. As I am sure many have observed, the biggest changes will appear at the South End/Convention District and along the Hillsborough Street corridor (downtown portion). For the former there are 3-4 more possibilities (Sites 2, 3 and 5) as well as the lot between Site 1 and Lincoln Theater, which is rumored to get a tower, although not until after 2010. Hillsborough Street’s potential is massive as 4 projects are either coming up or envisioned, with three more being speculated as developers are currently assembling land. This is a MAJOR facelift, as we’ll go from one tower (Clarion Hotel) to as many as 8, including Clarion. In the CBD area, the possibilities are not as many, but they exist. The 414 Fayetteville/Sheraton project (25-30 floors, or even taller if demand exists), the lot adjacent to One Progress Plaza, the parking deck across from Wachovia Capital Center (they can add up to 10 floors to the existing structure), the N&O block (Salisbury Str side) and of course Block B (more on this below). A few more opportunities may exist, but we’ll have to wait several years before something concrete gets proposed.
Block B may see more than two towers. One of them may become the new tallest for Raleigh, if the developer gets enough interest, but there is nothing to confirm or deny this speculation. It will all depend on the amount of interest and the market conditions. My guess is that we’ll see a residential component first, near the intersection between Blount and Davie Str, possibly followed by a hotel/residential tower around 15 floors on the intersection of Blount and Martin Str – strictly a speculation on my part . The office tower will have to appear at the end, provided a major tenant is found. Not many people have presented this possibility, but what if the developer is planning something with Highwoods Properties and RBC Centura for a second RBC tower? Although RBC Centura promised to leave the bulk of its operations in Rocky Mount (over 1000 employees, if I recall correctly), their commitment may have an expiration date. If they take most of those employees from Rocky Mount and add 100-200 new ones, they may end up with a second RBC tower. So far, there is nothing to suggest that, but you never know. On the top of everything, the possibility of getting Morgan Stanley still exists.
Naturally, and I am 100% with you (Emanuel), I would love to see 60+ story towers in Raleigh’s skyline. Personally, I do not care about all those arguments about scale. If we build a 60-story tower, we’ll soon discover how nicely it will be complemented by smaller towers of 40-50 floors. Unfortunately, going as high as 60 floors is not exactly an easy proposition. It will take vision, guts and VERY deep pockets. If we could get a company with 2000-3000 employees to become the major tenant of a true skyscraper, including 10-20 floors of hotel space will not be impossible. Then we can talk about 60 stories. RBC Centura is not going to be that tenant, I am afraid, but Morgan Stanley could, at least theoretically.
Let me shift gears and talk about something many critics find negative about Raleigh’s skyline. It is true that even with the completion of RBC Plaza, the skyline will look poor. Seriously. Take a look at the promotional material for RBC Plaza available at the Urban Design Center, next time you visit. There is a rendering showing RBC Plaza against a beautiful sunset background – alright, it is after sunset. You will discover how “naked” the skyline still feels. Without towers built along both sides of Salisbury and Wilmington Streets, it will be VERY tough to promote Raleigh’s skyline as one of the nicer ones in the South-East. The 20-25 story residential tower that was envisioned for the NE corner of Martin and Wilmington Streets would have been ideal, but the developer didn’t have the experience and the financial backing he thought he had to make it happen. This vision could have done miracles for the skyline.
As JRD nicely observed, Block B will strengthen density, but let me make a few observations. First, Block B is totally independent of Progres Energy. It is Highwoods Properties (responsible for the parking deck in the middle of the block) and Sandreuter who will have a saying on what goes there. Progress Energy wants to see big things, but once the sale is finalized, their involvement will end. Second, and this was partially mentioned earlier, the initial plans called for two high-rises and one taller mid-rise, with a few low-to-mid-rise fillers. This block has the potential of seeing not one, but two new tallest towers, although NOTHING so far can be taken for granted. Renderings should become available soon, but they will be preliminary and will focus on the land use more than the architectural details and size of the buildings. My guess is that by the end of this summer we should have a clearer idea.
Lafayette is a solid project. The delay you heard of has to do with some contamination issues, which exist for Sites 2 and 3, as well. The city officials will be looking into cleaning all three sites prior to finalizing any deal. check this link out for more on this:
http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_306_200_0_43/http;/pt03/DIG_Web_Content/category/Business/Economic_Development/Cat-1C-20041122-145856-Brownfields_Program.html
The interest for this project exists and it will break ground as soon as the city cleans the area from any contamination. Hence the delay and the push of the estimated date of completion. The developer is currently working on the L Building, the 7-story office mid-rise that will be wrapped around the two sides of the new parking deck (SW corner of McDowell and Davie streets) and a few other smaller projects, but they are ready for Lafayette’s groundbreaking as soon as the city finishes the clean-up.
Once Soleil Center 1 (what an awesome project), Soleil Center 2 and Creedmoor Tower are built, that area will certainly gain a lot of attention. Crabtree Village is another nice project, to the South of Crabtree Creek [project]. I anticipate Soleil Center 1 to break ground once the whole TIF debate with North Hills ends.
North Hills and North Hills East are moving along just fine. The Renaissance Hotel is under way, with The Lassiter soon to break ground. North Hills East will be a more exciting project though. Here are a few images:
http://northhillsraleigh.com/east/wp-content/images/NHRetail2_01.jpg
http://northhillsraleigh.com/east/wp-content/images/NHcover_01.jpg
http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/84690-400-0.jpg
http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/NorthHillsEast/NorthHillsEast-RaleighNC-1.jpg
North Hills should get 4 buildings from 7 stories and above (two of them are long-term visions), while North Hills East may see buildings up to 365ft, or simply put up to 30 stories (for residential). In terms of mid-to-high-rise proposals, there should be about 5 buildings of decent height
My apologies for the amount of information – and opinions – I posted here. It has been a while and I was tied up with some unexpected delays, but I am slowly coming back to normal.
June 13th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
These are definitely some surprising new developments. I dont even know what info to respond to. Im very excited to hear that the proverbial ball is still rolling for downtown with all these new visions.
I think that before things get too interesting (skyline-wise), that it would be a great idea for someone to start doing a time-lapse comera type deal from multiple angles to downtown. Think of how amazing it will be to see in 10 years, 20, 30……….
June 13th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
……..Where do I begin and what do I say? Ernest THANK YOU!!!! AMAZING. I love the sketches. I am overwhelmed with what is yet to come. I knew it!!! Raleigh is going to explode in a MAJOR way and when it does, all will say when & where did Raleigh come from. I love the sketches. Who knew that the North Hills area had such HUGE plans. Where exactly will the 2 buildings in the last 2 links you provided be located? Will the be located on level ground so the buildings and their height can be appreciated? Will they be across the street from N. Hills down in that valley area? If so, they won’t be seen much at all from a distance and will not do much (VISIBLY) for Raleigh at all, but it’s a start. Those sketches are more than what anyone could’ve anticipated, and just what we needed to see.(Well at least for me that is). DTR will be on the MAP in a major way in just a few years time. I said it before and I’ll say it again,Raleigh is going finally reflect the BIG CITY image that already exists in the people and culture and all will continue to flock here to live, and with the new plans this will give all those who place Raleigh on their lists of best cities to live in and best cities to work in more reasons to continue to place Raleigh at the top of these rankings. Thanks for the info on the downtown area Ernest! Again, WHO KNEW?? Imagine what Raleigh will appear to be,if and when they follow through………..! CELEBRATE!!!!
June 13th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Hey guys, does the Marriott hotel in the renderings appear to be more forward than it actually is?
June 13th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Hello, this website is pretty cool. I’ve been addicted two these conversations. I live near crabtree and did not know whether their was a consensus starting date for the construction of the westin/soleil center/70 foot cliff in the back.
June 13th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
to these – oops
June 13th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Emanuel, yes.
June 14th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Glad you guys enjoyed all that information. There is more in the pipeline as developers are slowly assembling land. Some projects may not be of the scale we’d like to see, but the locations they will be proposed for cannot handle more. By the way, did y’all hear the the City of Raleigh approved a 14-story proposal for the Clarence Lightner Safety Center. It will sit at the NW corner of the intersection of McDowell and Hargett Streets, where the Raleigh Police Dept is now. Considering it was first envisioned as a 6-story building, this is not bad at all. No final designs are provided, but the concept is approved and I hope that the financing part will not be an issue.
Let me hit you with one more, this time in the suburban Raleigh (Brier Creek area):
http://www.clinedesignassoc.com/portfolio/BrierCreekOffice_1.jpg
It is part of the plans for the Brier Creek Corporate Office development, much of which is already under way, or even completed – at the NW corner of the I-540 and Hwy 70 intersection. The taller buildings in the rendering are going to be lined up along the connecting road to the shopping center. Nice to see a change in attitude for the new developments.
Recently, I made an observation – in another urban forum – concerning Raleigh’s skyline. If you think about it, Raleigh has only 3 buildings of significant mass/height (for our city’s standards). I define significant as a minimum of 20 stories, with Clarion Hotel being excluded due to its small height. These buildings are:
* Two Hannover Square – 29 floors.
* Wachovia Capital Center – 29 floors.
* One Progress Plaza – 22 floors.
Why is this observation important? Just check out the following list and you will see:
* RBC Plaza – 32 stories; new tallest for Raleigh (under construction).
* Block “B” – Could bring Raleigh at least one new tallest building. Possibly 2 towers; 30+ stories (envisioned).
* 414 Fayetteville Str – Around 30 stories (envisioned).
* Reynolds Tower – 28 floors; including one mechanical floor (approved).
* Winston Project – Around 25 floors (envisioned).
* Site 1 (North Tower) – 20 floors (planned).
* Lafayette – 21 floors (planned).
* TMC/Blvd Centro Tower – 20 floors; on Hillsborough Str & Glenwood Ave (envisioned).
We are talking about a collection of buildings (above 20 floors) 3-4 times the current one, assuming everything goes well. This is an amazing improvement, without even discussing proposals that haven’t even been speculated. Add several buildings below 20 floors and you will realize how dense our skyline will look by 2012. Every 2 years we’ll be discussing major changes: 2008, 2010 and 2012 are the magic numbers. By then we should have the entire South End filled up and the Hillsborough Street corridor also having its own skyline. My guess is that the areas between Salisbury Str, the convention center, Nash Square and Hillsborough Str will become the “target” beyond the year 2012. That will be our last chance to clear up some space for supertalls. Beyond that, we’ll be facing tremendous challenges in finding land for such buildings. If we miss opportunities along Salisbury Str and McDowell Str, we’ll have to kick ourselves in the rear end.
Emanuel, North Hills East will be [obviously] to the East of New North Hills, divided by Six Forks Rd. If you look at the second North Hills East rendering I posted earlier, you will see Six Forks Rd in front of the taller structures. If you look at the North Hills area from the top of Wachovia Capital Center (see image below; courtesy of Matt Robinson), you will recognize all the buildings, including some 3-4 story low-rises. By placing several buildings above 5 stories you will create a decent skyline for that area. Now, imagine how nice it will look with buildings above 10 stories, as all of the NHE towers will be. The skyline of North Hills may not be visible from the ground level of downtown, but we cannot expect that. It will definitely be visible from the highway and from New North Hills/Lassiter. I encourage you to remain enthusiastic because Raleigh feels and acts like a real city. Having lived in New York City, I know precisely what urban, dense and tall mean; I finished Hunter College. Once you lived in NYC, you cannot be impressed, let alone overwhelmed, with any other city. Raleigh, however, is not trying to be NYC. It is shooting for something more inspiring: to become a nice and livable city. We want image, but we prefer livability as our number one attribute. Any comparisons to other cities are useless and pointless. Personally, I love the pace and feel of Raleigh and I do not care if we are the largest city in the state. Skyline and public transportation are probably the only issues I have with Raleigh, but there will always be something to improve.
http://www.raleighskyline.com/images/card/12.jpg
June 14th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
So, basically our skyline is going to double in size in the next few years……..Thats awesome
June 14th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
The number of times such words and phrases as “speculation,” “potential,” “may be,” “envisioned,” “my guess is,” “it would nice if,” “assuming everything goes well,” “may see,” “if we could get a company that would,” “I wish someone would come along and…,” etc., and so on and so forth appear in these postings should be a clue. If we’re lucky, a third of this potential may potentially,possibly, could, we might hope for, theoretically and speculatively become actual in the next dozen years.
June 14th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Thanks for the answers Ernest. You’ve given much light to what Raleigh alreay has and what’s on the way. I appreciate the breakdown you provided of the already existing buildings and that, like Matt’s photos, give a new and greater appreciation for the city a lot of us were unaware of.
I love the sketches you’ve provided. I am happy to see Brier Creek thriving the way it is. It gives Raleigh,as a whole, more variety/choice and depth to what it offers. I see even clearer why it’s on the top of everyone’s BEST lists.
June 15th, 2007 at 9:31 am
DubaiNot, you seem to have doubts/fears about some of the stuff we discuss here, which is normal, if you are not following the evolution of DT Raleigh. It will make you feel better to ask yourself this question: “How many projects have NOT happened?”. You may also ask: “How many projects have been stalled?”. You will be surprised to know that only 1-2 projects have never materialized in any way – one is actually happening as a different proposal – and maybe another 2-3 have been stalled – one of them was scaled down and will be back on the market. The vast majority of the projects you hear about have either scaled up (i.e. RBC Plaza, West At North), or appeared out of the blue (i.e. Quorum Center). This is how it happens in most cities, regardless the size. It took Winston Hotels three years to find a site for their 25-story proposal. Many of the delays come from land owners who back out the last minute, trying to get more money out the buyer, or simply from an unexpected shift in the market.
DT Raleigh does not yet provide unlimited potential. There are obstacles to consider, and some of them will disappear as more amenities are provided. A critical turn will be after the new convention center is finished – the early bookings are very encouraging and have far exceeded expectations – but all the work in the South End is currently nothing but a big obstacle towards creating a better image for our center. Thus, we have to rely on what has been envisioned for the era following the completion of the convention district and assume that everything will go as planned. If we do not qualify our statements, we’ll run the risk of creating and spreading rumors. I’d rather have someone doubting me than taking my word and later be let down if something goes wrong. I say this because I am “guilty” of using the phrases mentioned earlier, a lot. Everything boils down to image, which we are in the process of building. The ONLY major speculation is the talk about Morgan Stanley. A decision has yet to be made as to where the company will open its regional center. RTP is not a great location and large parcels are becoming more scarce these days – the latest TBJ takes a good look at this problem – therefore it is safe to assume that DT Raleigh is a good candidate. Again, we have to assume that things will go our way. Other than that, we make statements based on some reliable input.
Let me share a piece of good news, that isn’t the result of speculations, or the byproduct of enthusiasm. According to the Greater Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau, by the end of the [fiscal] year 2007 – will end on June 30, 2007 – we will have booked about 100,000 hotel room nights for future conventions. This will be about 60% increase over last year, when 61,865 room nights were logged. This is big news and very real.
By the way, building unrealistic hopes is not my goal. There are too many serious people here, who love to share and receive information; I would never share with y’all false news. I use the word “speculation” because I have no links to provide, or simply “prove” that what I say is real. Of course, developers have to speculate and envision a lot, but we are not going to wait 10 or more years to see these visions materialize, I can promise you that much.
Emanuel, feel free to send me an email if you want – the contact information is in my website, accessible if you click on my name. I will be more than happy to share more information with you.
June 15th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Ok how do you know if a 60+ building can be built in the dt Raleigh does not have the resources to build anything that tall and my question is I keep hearing is how do you know if Morgan Stanley is going to move a regional office in that area…Is this concrete or rumors?
June 15th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Al,
Could you please rephrase that question? Take your time now. Think it through. And maybe read Ernest’s last posting before you resubmit it.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Al,
Your questions are valid. First of all, DT Raleigh is not the entity to put the money towards building a 60+ story tower. We need a corporate entity and a developer with guts to deliver such structure. While Charlotte has Bank of America and Wachovia to put big money and effort – image means a lot to banks – Raleigh has taken a more “down to Earth” approach, which means the downtown area caters to smaller businesses that don’t necessarily require a powerful image. Progress Energy, RBC Centura and Capital Bank are certainly great examples of entities that make contributions to DT Raleigh’s corporate image, but they don’t have the numbers to justify skyscrapers.
Second, DT Raleigh depends a lot on State, County and City governments to provide incentives for ANY company to relocate to the core of the city. Those incentives do not exist in abundance when it comes to DT Raleigh, not to mention that property values in the downtown area make it VERY expensive to operate in the center. Suburban office parks become far more attractive options. Again, a major financial institution could provide, through its very existence, incentives to bring more companies downtown. Unlike Charlotte (I use this city only as an example), which started with the skyscrapers, Raleigh begun its downtown revitalization with the street-level experience. Back in the 80′s City Market was envisioned as a center of nightlife activity. In the early and mid-90′s, The Warehouse District became the second entertainment district and Downtown Raleigh Alliance was created. Immediately following the latter, Glenwood South became the third entertainment district and joined DT Raleigh – it was not considered downtown, officially. What does this show you? Raleigh took a different approach. I remember staying in an Uptown Charlotte hotel and scratching my head from the lack of any activity after business hours – Mythos was the only place I remember back in the mid-90′s, although I am sure there were other places that my girlfriend and I could not see. Today, Uptown Charlotte is a very different place and it is heading towards a great future. As a result of a different approach, DT Raleigh is more organic, though.
Unfortunately, there are still people in Raleigh who think that this city has the historic value of Savannah and Charleston, thus failing to realize the full potential of our downtown area. When the official plan for Block B gets presented, expect to hear the usual suspects screaming about the transitional nature of Blount Str. What a bunch of bull!!! Up until recently, some city officials saw Fayetteville Str as the only road where an urban canyon should exist. They went as far as implying Wilmington Str as a transitional area. For crying out loud!!! This breed is slowly becoming less relevant in the evolution of our city, particularly with all the current projects under way. To make these projects work we need a stronger image for DT Raleigh, something that was discouraged by the usual loudmouths.
Back to your questions. A 60+ story tower is possible. If it happens, it could be a nice mixed-use tower, heavy on residential and hotel space, with some office space and possibly a parking deck. The first question is: where can such a tower be built? Here are some possibilities:
a) The N&O parcel, once the printing facilities move out of downtown.
b) The parcel between the County Jail and the new convention center, currently used by Enterprise Rentals.
c) The block where the City Hall and the city’s parking deck is.
d) The combination of the nearly empty [former] Wachovia Bldg, First Citizens Bank (the eyesore at the NE corner of Martin and Fayetteville Streets), and 4 low-rises, directly to the North of RBC Plaza. Before anyone shoots me, let me clarify that the four low-rises I am talking about are nice to preserve, somehow. It is possible to do that and get a tall structure, at the same time, but not necessarily the most prectical solution.
e) The AT&T/Bellsouth eyesore can be razed and make room for a supertall.
I am sure we can find more locations, but I will stop here because this will take me too far. The second question is: who is going to build a 60+ story tower? A developer that could lure a very large company. Highwoods Properties seems to be the biggest player at this point in time and if their RBC Plaza is an indicator, I am very optimistic. Duke Realty is another one. They made an attempt to compete for RBC Centura, but even though they didn’t win they are still looking into downtown development opportunities. Beyond that we have Gregg Sandreuter, Greg Hatem/Empire Properties and Reynolds & Reynolds. The Sandman-TMC/Boulevard Centro and the East-West Partners/White Oak Properties/Craig Davis Properties alliances may bring something good, but they are too silent and too slow moving, IMHO. They are committed developers, though, and I am optimistic that anyone of them could work on something major.
This brings us to Morgan Stanley. What do we know so far? John Mack (CEO of Morgan Stanley) is a Duke graduate. He and his wife recently donated $5 million to Shaw University and purchased a house in Wilmington. Also, the same lady who scouted for sites on behalf of Fidelity Investments is also working on Morgan Stanley’s envisioned regional center relocation. Connect the dots and you will realize that the Triangle appears to be the best candidate, not to mention that Morgan Stanley expressed interest in this area. At this point in time two developers are looking into attracting Morgan Stanley to DT Raleigh, but I have not heard anything solid, nor I expect to hear anything until a decision is made. The key word is “incentives” and depends on Wake County and the City of Raleigh.
Al, I don’t know if I answered your questions to your satisfaction, but this is the best I can do for now. I am neither a developer, nor a heavily involved individual, but I try to stay well informed and separate pies in the sky from realities. I would hate anyone to think that Raleigh is a city where 60-story buildings can materialize easily. Even Charlotte has only one building slightly above 60 floors and it took many years after it had Raleigh’s current population number plus a fierce competition between two major banks. If we can get 2-3 more towers between 30 and 40 floors in the next 5-6 years I will be very happy. Anything above that will be a bonus… and it may happen sooner.
June 15th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Well said Ernest!!! It is easy to get caught up in appearances, I AM GUILTY OF THAT, but it’s great to have more facts and insight, which I lack. Once YOU(ERNEST) pointed out what Raleigh already has and what is yet to come, then I looked at Raleigh with different eyes or opened eyes. I have always said Raleigh has the BIG CITY feel and mentality and that it’s only a matter of time before it reflects that visually, but 10 years ago who knew or had the faintest idea tha Raleigh would be building RBC, a 4 star Marriott, condos, Progress Energy, and quite a few others? Now BOOM here they are and 10 years from now, history will repeat what’s going on right now, then one day, a simple 60 story skyscrapper will be common ground for Raleigh. I look at Raleigh the way it is, and it’s GREAT! It’s approach to growth is it’s own, and whatever attracted the companies that are now taking up residency in Raleigh will attract others as well. Live in the moment or you will always live with regret and disappoinment.
June 16th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Emanuel,
I think you are more aware of the direction Raleigh is going than you think. As you nicely implied, appearances can easily deceive someone. Even to someone who knows enough to “draw” the big picture, Raleigh can appear as a non-happening place. The amazing part is that according to the city’s Urban Planning director, in a recent interview, 25% of development in Raleigh happens in downtown. That is up from 5%, five years ago. This is far more important and exciting news for me.
Along with success stories, we need to be prepared for some failures. As much as we desire to see big things, we have to maintain a down-to-Earth approach. Deal with the facts and speculate when needed, but always remain realistic. This is where people lose hope when a project gets delayed. No need to panic, or get too enthusiastic. It is only a matter of time before DT Raleigh becomes a very vibrant place and gets some more attention nationally, but we will have to succeed – and fail – many more times before this happens.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Hey thanks for the info on that Ernest….I sent an email to our Charlotte Partners to see if they can intervine of offering more incentives to Morgan Stanley
June 18th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Well, if they can make an offer Morgan Stanley cannot refuse, then best of luck – assuming what you meant was that someone from Charlotte will make a bid for Morgan Stanley going to the Queen City instead. I’d rather see the company going to Charlotte than going outside NC. However, they have already expressed interest in coming to the Triangle, which I am sure will go beyond the typical incentives game. Fidelity Investments and Credit Suisse chose the Triangle instead, therefore it is safe to say that Raleigh has more chances to attract Morgan Stanley. It will be lame for Charlotte trying to “steal” Morgan Stanley from Raleigh and judging from my experience, Charlotte will not interfere, unless Raleigh’s chances are very slim. If what you meant was that Charlotte Partners (whoever they are) might in fact try to help Raleigh, that will be a nice gesture, however improbable in my opinion.
June 18th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
I flew into Raleigh Saturday and will be leaving tomorrow, but today I was able to visit DTR, Brier Creek, and North Hills and all 3 areas are THRIVING far beyond what I am able to see online. Each area is actively building/constructing to establish Raleigh as a BIG CITY!!!! I am glad I was able to witness this for myself. One thing Raleigh has to offer that NYC doesn’t is being more than large enough to drive all over the city. Raleigh’s population is clearly over a million and still growing and the city is reflecting the continuous population growth.. I was also able to visit almost all of the new condos being built, but what really caught me off guard in a GREAT way was F street. Not only is there excitement in the air in the city overall, but there is also a feel of HUGE ANTICIPATION waiting to burst in Raleigh. The people clearly know what is coming with all of the projects currently underway and that is…….I don’t know what to call it, but it’s an awesome thing. I suppose it’s that everyone else is about to see what the resisdents have known for a while and that is Raleigh is a DESTINATION city. DTR is rapidly growing not only on F street but well around and beyond it. I was not expecting to see so much going on, from the street vendors and the local businesses to what Raleigh has to offer after 5 PM. The city is still going well into and beyond the midnight hour from such restaurants like Yancey’s, which reminds me of so many spots in NYC with the live musical entertainment, to the countless number of night clubs(with live radio broadcasts) and bars and this is only the beginning…WOW!! I don’t think Raleigh is even ready for the city it’s becoming.
June 18th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Well, Im in NE Georgia and havent been home since Christmas. I hope that when I get home at the end of the month, I am able to feel the same vibe that Emmanuel was feeling. It sounds good to me:)
June 18th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Emanuel,
I am truly happy to hear that your recent experience in Raleigh has been positive. I was on Fayetteville Str today, for lunch, and I can assure you that the activity was slightly below average. Much of it was probably because of the heat and humidity. I know that you will be more anxious now to see photos every month. Matt will have to work double to show you everything that happens in the area
Your last sentence is definitely the scariest part. Hopefully, Raleigh will manage to remain down to Earth, without sacrificing its chances to become a big city some day. The attitude of the population is right and I would like to believe that the city’s leaders will be able to manage the growth and show initiatives.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
I think that Emanuel and I are on the same page. I spend most of my time on the west coast, but when i’m back in Raleigh, I get a sense of the excitement and a city on the verge of breaking out. I guess that those who live in Raleigh fulltime don’t see things the same way as someone who’s not there fulltime, and that’s natural. My sense is that within 2 years, Raleigh will definitely be on the national map. Believe it or not, it already is, but locals just don’t know it yet. I hear it all of the time during my travels.
June 19th, 2007 at 5:24 am
Or. on the other hand, Charlotte Partners may purchase the capitol and move it to the South End.
June 19th, 2007 at 8:35 am
^^
Or better, make Charlotte the capital city and move the entire state government there
Matt and Dustin are going to kill me for doing this, but I will share some of my photos for our Raleigh forumers who don’t live here. The images below show a typical weekday along Fayetteville Str. They don’t do justice, but they are a nice way to demonstrate how DT Raleigh is changing.
http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/79661293.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/79661296.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/79661304.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/79661310.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/79661316.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/79661320.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/79661323.jpg
Glad to know that you (Emanuel and Anonymous) see the changes every time you visit. Rest assured that even I, who work downtown, see things changing every week. Once Site 1 gets under way, along with the second phase of Fayetteville Str reopening, it will be obvious that our city’s center has become a more dynamic and happening place.
June 20th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Wow, that looks like far more activity than when I used to ride my bike on “the mall” as a kid. I guess we’re doing something right.
Whats up with the scaffolding in some of the pictures? (in front of the sir walter) Are they renovating something
June 20th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Yes, there are a lot of renovations and the scaffolds can be seen in many areas along and near Fayetteville Str. The scaffolds you saw are next to the former Dollar Zone store (near Briggs Hardware Bldg) and across from RBC Plaza, on the same side with Mecca Restaurant, but there are more.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:05 pm
IT IS GOOD TO FINALLY HEAR OF THE SKYSCRAPER PROPOSALS FOR DOWNTOWN GREENSBORO. I LOVE THE IDEA OF THE PROPOSED CENTER POINT 30 STORY SKYSCRAPER, A PROPOSED HIGH-RISE HOTEL, A 18 STORY PROPOSED FEDERAL COUTHOUSE, THE 22 STORY PROPOSED TRIAD TOWER NEAR THE AIRPORT, AND OTHER DEVELOPMENTS. I KNOW THIS SITE IS MOSTLY ABOUT RALEIGH, BUT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW HOW LONG GREENSBORO HAS LAGGED BEHIND OTHER CITIES WITH SKYSCRAPERS. WITH GREENSBOR’S POPULATION NEAR 250,000, IT SHOULD HAVE HAD THESE CURRENT PROPOSALS YEARS AGO. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SEVERAL 30+ BUILDINGS ERECTED DOWNTOWN GREENSBORO. TO ME, IT WOULD SHOW GREENSBORO’S PROGRESS, GROWTH, AND EXCITEMENT. ALL THOSE FOR MORE 30+ SKYSCRAPERS IN DT GREENSBORO, I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU. I’M SORTA BULLISH ON GREENSBORO’S SKYLINE WHICH DEFINITELY NEEDS MUCH HELP. RALEIGH, GOOD JOB WITH YOUR DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE IN PROGRESS AND YOU TOO ARE MUCH DESERVING JUST AS GREENSBORO IS MUCH DESERVING.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:12 am
yes gboro does need some assistance with its current skyline. i think the center pointe will be the jump off for gboro just like progress energy was for raleigh. once they build it…. then more will come, like i said before i am all for north carolina as a whole not just one city! i would love to see raleigh with a beautiful dt, gboro with a beautiful dt, fayetteville and durham. charlotte, winston salem and asheville are pretty much already there!
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Good observation!!! I agree that the Center Pointe will do exactly what Two Progress Plaza did for Raleigh. There is a point when developers may realize that there are too many opportunities to ignore for long. One of the indicators will be any efforts to assemble land. Look for those silent developers who are slowly buying, or actively looking for land. DT Greensboro has some nice parcels available, which can be redeveloped without ruining any existing historic buildings. This is what starting to become scarce in DT Raleigh. Lots of smaller parcels, but not much in terms of developing entire blocks, or even half of them.
laryea, allow me to add one more downtown that is pretty much there: DT Wilmington. By “there” I mean truly mixed-use, busy, with lots of residents and with a nice variety of destinations. In my opinion, only DT Asheville and DT Wilmington are actually there, but we all may have our own standards.
June 26th, 2007 at 7:57 am
I’ve heard a rumor (I’d call it no more than that at this point) that the MS possibility has taken a step forward and may now be closer to a reality. Ernest, have you heard anything new?
June 26th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Hey PPR, JUST FOR MY INFORMATION AT LEAST….WHAT IS THE MS POSSIBILITY? THANKS, I WAS NOT CLEAR ON THIS.
June 26th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Alan,
Methinks PPR refers to the possibility of Morgan Stanley locating a regional headquarters here (see Ernest’s posting of June 15th above, second paragraph from the end). There has been some speculation about a very, very tall building in
DTR to house this.
June 26th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Nothing solid, but we may have a very good chance in getting Morgan Stanley to Raleigh
While there is a lot of secrecy – naturally – we are very close to the final decision. I think that we are all going to hear about it at the same time. Unlike skyscrapers and other projects, relocations are announced without much previous talk. Until the last minute, everything is fluid. First, we will have to secure the relocation as a region. Then, we will have to make a strong case as a city. Finally, we’ll have to attract Morgan Stanley to downtown. The last days before the official announcement will be very hectic, I can promise you that much, but only for those directly involved. The good news is there is no 200 acres in RTP to destroy anymore, much like Fidelity Investments did 
June 27th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Raleigh is a hellhole and the only buildings that are worth anything are the jail and a bank. The rest they could knock down and plow under. The Raleigh ‘skyline’ is barely different than it was 12 years ago and it will never be anything to write home about. There are dozens of cities in the US with far fewer people than Raleigh that actually have skyline or even a downtown that’s not WPA era government offices. Go to Richmond ,Pittsburgh, Toledo, Newark, Buffalo, St. Paul, Greensboro, hell even Durham.
But not Raleigh. Not the proud stupid rednecks of Raleigh who can’t do anything except hire cops and build more sprawl.
June 27th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I flew into Raleigh Saturday and will be leaving tomorrow, but today I was able to visit DTR, Brier Creek, and North Hills and all 3 areas are THRIVING far beyond what I am able to see online. Each area is actively building/constructing to establish Raleigh as a BIG CITY!!!! I am glad I was able to witness this for myself. One thing Raleigh has to offer that NYC doesn’t is being more than large enough to drive all over the city. Raleigh’s population is clearly over a million and still growing and the city is reflecting the continuous population growth.. I was also able to visit almost all of the new condos being built, but what really caught me off guard in a GREAT way was F street. Not only is there excitement in the air in the city overall, but there is also a feel of HUGE ANTICIPATION waiting to burst in Raleigh. The people clearly know what is coming with all of the projects currently underway and that is…….I don’t know what to call it, but it’s an awesome thing. I suppose it’s that everyone else is about to see what the resisdents have known for a while and that is Raleigh is a DESTINATION city. DTR is rapidly growing not only on F street but well around and beyond it. I was not expecting to see so much going on, from the street vendors and the local businesses to what Raleigh has to offer after 5 PM. The city is still going well into and beyond the midnight hour from such restaurants like Yancey’s, which reminds me of so many spots in NYC with the live musical entertainment, to the countless number of night clubs(with live radio broadcasts) and bars and this is only the beginning…WOW!! I don’t think Raleigh is even ready for the city it’s becoming.
Ok Raleighs Population is not over a million not even that far unless you are talking about the surround counties that might include that amt……Actualy pop for raleigh would be in the mid 300 as far as I know…..
June 27th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
G’boro on the rise….Wow, that is exciting and wished that Winston would get on the roll as well as Asheville….The dt area of any city is exciting as long as there are things to do as well as clubs, art shows, galleries…etc….But one thing I must say since that I am working in the uptown area of charlotte is parking if these buildings under construction and no parking will wee people from coming to the dt area, but anywazzz i love a place that can have all kinds of activities for Adults as well as families to enjoy the nightlife…
June 27th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
The population of Raleigh is definitely not 1 million, but I think Emanuel was referring to the metro area (MSA) number, which surpassed 1 million a few months ago. In a away, the current metro provides our downtown with constant visitors, whether they are employees that create the pedestrian activity during business hours, or young professionals who live in Knightdale and drive 15-20 minutes each direction to experience what DT Raleigh has to offer. Now, 15-20 minutes to someone from a big city is nothing, therefore it is safe to use MSA numbers every now and then. Nobody claims, literally that Raleigh acts and feels like a million people city, but the pace has picked up enough to make many big city folks enjoy living here. Just for the record, the January 2007 estimates placed Raleigh close to 360,000 (within city proper).
Steve, I am not sure why you sound so upset with Raleigh, but I will respect your opinion. I am not going to discuss what’s coming because we have already spent enough time on this topic. The perception that Raleigh isn’t going anywhere, in terms of skyline, is based on the fact that no visible changes exist, except for that eyesore (Marriott Hotel) that managed to find its way to one of the most valuable parcels of our city. Hey, I will agree with you that there are MANY buildings that need to be replaced by better, bigger and more functional structures. I am not pleased with the existing architecture – I hate that stupid County Jail building – but in the future we’ll view many of that crap as fillers. We do have a few nice looking mid-rises which deserve to be salvaged and reused, but not many low-rises that still occupy valuable land.
I wouldn’t go as far as calling city officials “stupid rednecks”, and while I agree about the sprawl, we need to take a good look at Raleigh’s density numbers first. Not many people know that Raleigh is actually the densest city in North Carolina. Comparing it to Richmond, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, etc. would not be fair to Raleigh. The aforementioned cities are places well established, and were MUCH bigger than Raleigh during their days of glory. Sprawl is happening everywhere and I do not see why it wouldn’t happen here. There are some good news, however. The Planning Dept director stated that ~25% of the growth is happening downtown. This, by itself, says a lot. Sure, there are skeptics out there, who can’t accept growth and want to see Raleigh maintain a small town atmosphere, but we will never get back to the days when Raleigh was a tiny little city. DT Raleigh may not be as charming as DT Asheville, or DT Wilmington, but let’s not put it down yet. Let’s give DT Raleigh the benefit of the doubt and the time to prove itself.
June 27th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Population figures for any city vary widely depending upon what is included. Within their respective city limits, Raleigh has more population than both Cincinnati and Pittsburg. Raleigh’s estimated 2005 popluation, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, inside the city limits, is almost 350,000. That’s up more than 64,000 from five years erlier. Wake County’s 2006 population is 783,000, up 155,000 from six years earlier. In both cases, the rate of increase is accelerting. As is the Metropolitan Statistical Area population, a good indicator of population-growth strength. The MSA for this region is comfortably over a million.
Raleigh is clearly on the rise, like or not, while some of the cities Steve mentions are struggling. Hard to say what so blinds Steve to reality. Probably jealousy.
For Al, it’s a different story. He writes so incoherently (see today’s post) you have to assume he also reads poorly. And is maybe about 10-years-old. Sorry, I realize I’m not being as charitable as Ernest. Al’s silly rants are making me weary, which is probably what he intends. People have written to him very congenially, but he retains his foolish ways. And sometimes really odd ways (see his strange reference to Carolina Partners of a few days past — or rather, don’t bother, it’s not worth searching far).
June 27th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Guys—especially Ernest, why to you insist on trying to explain or even justify Raleigh, based on the comments from people like Al and Steve?????? Don’t you know that you can’t argue with FOOLS?????? The best way to deal with them is to simply ignore their comments, plain and simple.
Ernest – I know that you think that you are making friends for Raleigh and bringing people over from the darkside, but you are NEVER, EVER, EVER going to change the thinking of people like that, who choose to think the worst about things or people or places that they hate because of envy. SO PLEASE STOP!!!!!!!!!!! Don’t waste your time trying to respond to their silly and idiotic rantings. It isn’t worth it!
June 27th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
:LOL:
You guys are very nice to me
The truth is that I did not respond to Al. I merely tried to get the conversation going and who knows, there maybe people who read these lines and are sincerely interested to know about the population in Raleigh. In fact, just earlier this morning I shared a link to population projections with someone in another forum. The more we discuss these topics, the better we learn how to present Raleigh to those who seek to know more about our city. Al’s reaction to Raleigh is definitely childish and he is too blind to see what is truly happening in Raleigh. If Morgan Stanley ends up in the Triangle, which is very likely, it will join two other big financial services players: Fidelity Investments and Credit Suisse of Boston. Those Charlotteans who belittle Raleigh every chance they get will become troubled by the thought that the aforementioned companies chose Raleigh/Triangle over the Queen City. Yes, it is possible that Raleigh can become a much stronger magnet for corporations than Charlotte was when the latter’s population was below 400,000. For the moment, let’s enjoy the ride. Personally, I am not concerned about Raleigh immitating any other city.
June 28th, 2007 at 7:32 am
You guys are completely rude.
June 28th, 2007 at 7:34 am
that goes to CoPar and Don….
June 28th, 2007 at 8:49 am
Wow, from the forementioned comments seems like someone does not like Raleigh too much. Anyway, I think Raleigh is growing population wise at a very rapid rate. I remember when the population was around 155,000 and below Winston-Salem. I was living in Greensboro in the 80′s when Raleigh’s population surpassed Greensboro making it the 2nd largest city in the state. BOY was I mad. Greensboro never ever caught up as I was so hoping it would. My prediction is that within the next 5 years, Durham will be the 3rd largest city in population. It is fast approaching Greensboro and has passed W-Salem already. Watch out Greensboro and don’t you dare let Durham pass you. I am happy to learn that Greensboro has about 250,000 people now compared to 186,000 when i lived there. It is also good to know that MSA, Greensboro has around 1.5 million. Now if only tall mega skyscrapers could be built to signify that in Greensboro. Boy I sure hope Disney decides to bring those visionary plans to Greensboro. What a boost that would be for downtown, a highrise hotel, convention center complex, and all sorts of other exciting projects. I may even move back there then.
One last tid-bit, I just heard on the news this morning and almost wrecked my car while listening and driving to work at VA Tech that Philadelphia has lost its rank as the 5th largest city in the US, Now it is……..Pheonix. It just passed Philly about 2 days ago.
June 28th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Good info and very accurate descriptions of Steve and Al from CoPar. Of course Don is right about it being better to ignore such dribble. And Ernest’s observations are always good to ponder.
I pledge to ignore the Stevens and Als…BUT let me first comment on some of the cities in that laughable lineup Steve advances as being superior to Raleigh. Raleigh’s inside-the-city population was listed at about 350,000 in 2005. (This morning’s N&0 shows the latest USCB estimates raising that to over 356,000.) Among those Steve asks us to compare with are:
Buffalo – which lost 13,000, down to 279,000, from ’00 to ’05
Toledo – which lost 12,000, down to 301,000, from ’00 to ’05
Richmond – which lost 5,000, down from 198,000 to 193,000 from ’00 to ’06
And then there’s Newark, a suburb of NYC. Few other cities of comparable size could be less appropriate as a comparison. Toledo, Buffalo and Richmond were fairly large population centers for decades while Raleigh was a little town. Richmond, a beautiful and quite interesting city, began a downward slide the night of April 2, 1865, recovered nicely during the middle of the last century and then became stagnant (or worse) again.
I moved to Raleigh in the early 1980s. It was by no means a large population center, even though it had gained considerably from just a decade or two earlier. According to USCB stats, Wake County’s 1980 population was barely over 300,000. Today, it’s fast approaching 800,000, and the metro area is near 1.2 mil. Some cities are on the rise – some on the decline. It’s been very exciting to see Raleigh’s growth. Raleigh today is a much more vibrant, dramatic, dynamic city than when I arrived. Though the skyline had a spurt of growth a dozen years ago, then stayed much the same, the number of construction cranes seen dt now shows how quickly this is improving, and plans announced for the future show it is just the beginning.
Okay, I’ll now forget about those silly rants and just enjoy the fact that Raleigh, already a superb place to live, is on it’s way to even greater things.
Wait, just one more thing… A report published in 2006 by the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University states that “‘Smart’ regions with skilled workforces display higher rates of growth in population and income….” The report highlights four places in the introductory wording of the report. They are Boston, Seattle, Raleigh/Durham and the San Francisco Bay area. Statistics in the report show that the Raleigh area places fourth in the nation in growth of cities that have large percentages of adults with college degrees. There’s a lot more to it, of course, but I’m afraid I’m boring Al and Steve to tears. Whoops.
June 28th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Al, you’re right. I offer you my apology. But just to you, not Steve.
June 28th, 2007 at 9:38 am
A words about MSA’s.
As of July 2006 MSA totals are as follows:
Raleigh-Cary 994,000
Greensboro-High Point 685,000
Durham 464,000
Winston-Salem 456,000
A few years ago they split off Durham from the Raleigh-Cary MSA and split off Winston-Salem from the Greensboro-High Point MSA.
June 28th, 2007 at 9:51 am
I’m not sure that I want to be as apologetic as CoPar. I think that Al’s silly and derogatory comments about Raleigh posted on a Raleigh website is rude and thoughtless, not to mention very disrespectful.
The only thing that I can think to say to Al, and Steve for that matter is….what goes around, comes around!
June 28th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Don,
You can just keep your rude comments to yourself…Even if you cannot accept constructive criticism then its best that you just don’t say anything at all…I accept your apology CoPar……
June 28th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM? You call that crap you’ve been posting constructive criticism? I’m starting to think that you’re not a case one of silliness or poor education, but a case of insanity.
June 28th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Ya know what will make everyone happy? Updated renderings and the June series of pics!
June 28th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Don,
Whatever!!!!
June 28th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Good observation travis. I’ve been thinking the exact same thing.
June 28th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Travis and Raleighite – I am indeed working on a new rendering, stay tuned.
June 28th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Al,
You truly are insane to think that what you’ve been posting is constructive criticism. Maybe you should review some of your posts. Im really beginning to think that you are not even twelve years old. The things you have said are obviously aimed at trying to piss people off when actually they make you sound unintelligent and immature.
Then again I rather enjoy the arguments because you are constantly being proven wrong.
June 28th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Paul, I’ve seen the MSA you mention. There’s also a current MSA called Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill that gives the larger number. But however you count it, the point is, there is fantastic growth here and the brunt of it is in Wake County. The growth rate in Wake and the counties contiguous to Wake is astonishing.
You guys ease up on Al. He probably can’t help it. But Don and JRD do make some points. Whew. It takes a lot of effort to find anything constructive in there, doesn’t it?
Looking forward to Matt’s new renderings.
June 28th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Take a look at this article. It should make all Raleighites happy. Soon we’ll belong to an elite group, one of the top 50 cities in the US.
June 28th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Sorry CoPar, somehow your name showed up in my name field, but the last post was actually by me. Anyway, here’s the website…
http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/06/25/daily30.html?jst=b_ln_hl
June 28th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
For more up to date numbers check out the city’s web page, particularly the Population Estimates section:
http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_306_202_0_43/http;/pt03/DIG_Web_Content/category/Resident/Raleigh_At_A_Glance/Cat-1C-20051006-152447-Raleigh_Demographics.html
June 29th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Another stat to throw into the mix.
According to the Raleigh Economic Development web site, the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill Combined Statistical Area (CSA) population is 1,505,841. That’s a 2005-2006 figure. The CSA includes Wake, Durham, Orange, Johnston, Franklin, Chatham, Person and Harnett counties. These counties are all contiguous to either Wake, Durham or both.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:33 am
The economic and population growth of this area (Triangle) cannot be disputed. I am not suggesting we are immune to a future slowdown, or even a downfall, but as is the Triangle is one of the most prosperous areas in the country. Going back to the skyline discussion, I would caution anyone trying to belittle Raleigh’s image to take in consideration the nature of our region’s economic growth: research, government and technology. None of these sectors require image. In Raleigh, we are just beginning to grow as a city – population is not the main factor here – and comparing us with cities that were established many years ago would be foolish. Take Colorado Springs, as an example. That city is larger than Raleigh, yet its skyline doesn’t quite reflect the population numbers. As we are slowly attracting financial services companies, the image will change significantly. The condo towers will be another major contribution to the skyline, but that is a whole different topic.
Naturally, larger cities take the lead in solving growth pains and provide inspiration for other cities. The true big cities, however, do not adopt an obnoxious behavior towards other cities. They have a mature attitude and never stop looking at other cities for inspiration, however smaller those places might be. Several years ago, Raleigh looked into Greenville, SC, to get some ideas and see what those guys were doing right. Raleigh has NEVER demonstrated an obnoxious attitude towards others. We have taken the “live and let live” approach and so far it’s working. We are not trying to beat other cities, only to continue prosper using our own strengths. Unfortunately, there are cities that look down on other areas in the same state, but those are cities that will never act as truly big urban centers, regardless of population. Glad to see that Raleigh is not one of them.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
I am sorry for monopolizing this discussion, but I noticed a little piece of news that put a smile on my face. If you pick up a copy of Triangle Business Journal, I am sure you will find more information, but for those not planning to do so here is a link to an interesting article from TBJ:
http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/07/02/story15.html
In brief, Regions Bank (a Birmingham, AL bank) chose Raleigh as its North Carolina and Virginia hub. The 50 employees may not be the news that could make the first page, but the faith that this big company – $133 billion in assets – showed for Raleigh and the Triangle is definitely important and we should not downplay this. Our city is slowly becoming attractive to financial services institutions and banks. Maybe some day we’ll see something bigger than RBC Centura coming to DT Raleigh.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
The last two posts above were made by me. For reasons I cannot explain two names were used for my signature. Anyway, it is the same Ernest, in case anyone wonders
June 30th, 2007 at 9:29 am
Glad that you pointed this out Ernest. It just goes to show that Raleigh is becoming a serious contender in the financial services arena, and for good reason. With all of the innovation coming out of this area, the banks and investment companies and private equity all want to get a piece of the action. Where money flows, buildings grow.
July 1st, 2007 at 9:28 pm
It’s unfortunate this site has not been updated in about two months, other than that fay st. zoom. I will be glad to do some pr bono work for the administrator if need be. This site with its IMPORTANT name, “Raleighskyline” should be updated more regularly. Again, I will be glad to offer any help.
July 2nd, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Everyone is taking an interest in Raleigh(Regions Bank) for one reason or another. Raleigh is clearly on a positive path with it’s growth and expansion. Thanks for the link Ernest! Go Raleigh!!!!
July 2nd, 2007 at 2:21 pm
DUH, thanks for the additional population information about the CSA. People get the MSA and CSA confused. The MSA that Raleigh is a part of includes only Wake, Johnston and Franklin counties. The CSA, that Raleigh is a part of, includes the eight counties that you mentioned above.
July 2nd, 2007 at 11:15 pm
This may not be big news, but it shows the increasing interest in DT Raleigh:
http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/623791.html
Some banks will choose a small presence in downtown versus no presence at all. Not to mention the increasing occupancy rate that will make future office towers easier to materialize. Along with high-rises, DT Raleigh will continue to get the ‘organic’ growth. Along with the ‘big guys’ we should see several smaller businesses flourish and prosper… hopefully.
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Sssssssharlotte….
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:52 pm
LOL @ AL.
July 3rd, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Al is a HATER in the worst way. So much to the point that he has nothing better to do in CHARLOTTE than come here and spit venom. To call him a child who suffers from lack of attention, love, but one who has experienced much abuse would by far, be an insult to those who may be described as such. Al you are ever seeking and never finding b/c you are full of so much “bitterness” , to put it mildly, that there is no room for anything else to dwell within in you. Do yourself a favor, and heed to the call within yourself and grow up, let it go, and get over it and yourself. All anyone can do is LAUGH at you. You are nothing more than a SORRY COURT JESTER!!!! LOL!!!
July 4th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
News
July 3, 2007
CBS’ “Early Show” To Broadcast From Fayetteville Street On July 13
CBS’ morning program “The Early Show” is coming to Raleigh, and is bringing world-class musicians.
The national broadcast will be shown live from Fayetteville Street in downtown Raleigh on Friday, July 13, beginning at 7 a.m.
The two-hour show will feature a live performance by Bruce Hornsby & Ricky Skaggs.
If interested in attending this nationally-broadcast event, please arrive on location at 6:30 a.m.
Schools And Organizations Welcome
This is a wonderful opportunity for your school or organization to gain free national exposure and demonstrate the spirit and pride of your school. All you need to bring is enthusiasm and school spirit. If you are interested in participating in this exciting CBS “Early Show” series event, please contact Audience Coordinator Connor Buttner at ButtnerC@cbsnews.com or call at 212-975-0032 to get the complete detail information and to book your school’s spot!
WOW!!!! Raleigh is on the map in a HUGE WAY!!! A NYC Morning show(CBS Early Show)!!!! will be broadcasting live from F. Street. I am so Happy for the city of Raleigh. Raleigh is showing the nation that NC has so much to offer!
http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_411_208_0_43/http%3B/pt03/DIG_Web_Content/news/public/News-PubAff-CBS___Early_Show__To_Bro-20070703-16031640.html
July 5th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Thanks for sharing the announcement with us, Anonymous. Such events certainly help Raleigh gain some additional recognition.
July 6th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Thanks for the new pics
. I am officially happy lol
July 8th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Hey Guys,
It appears that whatever will go up on Block B, if it’s at least 27 stories, it will be seen from the South Saunders view. Is that correct?
July 8th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Emanuel,
It seems that due to the elevation, the Block B tower(s) will have to be at least 35 stories to be visible from the SW. The S. Saunders Str shot (aka “money shot”) is definitely a beautiful angle, but it doesn’t do justice to the number of high-rises we have, or will have. Personally, I favor the NE and SE angles because they offer better views, but we’ll see which angle will be the best in the future, as the skyline changes. So far, I am not impressed with the renderings I’ve seen – Matt’s work is an exception, of course – when it comes to showing the actual impact, so I would wait before I decide which angle is my favorite.
July 8th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
the best view of dt raleigh is from lake wheeler road going towards downtown…. thats the view they need to show on the news and etc, especially at night!!
July 9th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I know that it is a bit off-topic, but there is no common area where such news can be shared. Check this out:
http://www.fastcompany.com/cities/2007/
Also, check out the competition and tell me what were the chances when we first had to compete against world-class cities. Sure, we don’t get awards for being the most cosmopolitan city, but I will take any recognition that comes our way. There were a few nice surprises (Ft Collins and Boise), but we may also be considered an underdog when competing with truly major urban centers around the world.
Thought y’all might like this link