Mike, I hope you will remain a faithful forumer, even after your return to NYC. It will be good to have an opportunity to return to Raleigh in the future and I hope it happens, as I hope that Raleigh will be a much better place – in terms of urban amenities – although I doubt seriously that the skyline will provide any “rewards” to us, skyline enthusiasts

Jarred, I am not sure there is a known deadline, but if Skyhouse is Phase Two, then Phase One may be delivered first, or at least break ground. My guess is, within a year.

Matt I love this site, please continue with it as I will check in from time to time after I leave in 2 weeks.

Oh yeah, the site for the the North Hills mag. is midtownmag.com, thanks Ernest

ULTra PRT – http://www.ultraprt.com/applications/proposed-systems/raleigh-midtown/

Some forumers may react to North Hills getting high-rises, but let’s keep in mind that John Kane doesn’t own land in downtown, nor he has to go through Hell to get his buildings approved, as it is the norm for downtown. North Hills residents have backed Kane and his proposals, so it would be a breeze. The only time he had troubles and had to postpone his proposal, was the two 11-15 story twins that will stand at the SW corner of Lassiter Mill Rd and Six Forks Rd. The freakin’ morons in one of the city’s committees shut this down because they said it was too close to the street; I think it was about 110ft-130ft from the street, which is nowhere near what we can call “too close”. Other than that, city leaders want to see better urban guidelines

Anyway, I am hoping that Kane will continue delivering the goods, while other developers stand back and watch. I just wish that Kane could eventually bring something downtown, but that will require an almost complete change in leadership. While we have Crowder, Stepheson and McFarlane running the show, this is not going to happen… They just don’t inspire enough for any developer to bring something major. They may be good for some things, but not for making final decisions, IMO.

Since we discuss solar panels, I wonder if it would be cost-effective to cover the parking deck adjacent to Site 4 and place solar panels on the top. It would look far more attractive than what it looks now.

As for the SECU Bldg, I am glad they will provide speculative office space. We know we are not going to get a major entity, but we are surely able to attract small and medium sized companies, which may need anywhere between 50,000sf and 150,000sf. While I would love to see NC SECU bringing its HQ to downtown soon, I am not disappointed with their decision to stay where they are now. I am sure they will see the benefit in the future, especially after they lease all the space in their new building. They may turn out to be the dark horse for DT Raleigh, some day.

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/53335-skyhouse-apartments/#entry1167421

Cheers

As for the area this high-rise will occupy vs. Phase 1 – I will name it “Waste Of Space Apartments” – it is exactly what some of us complain about. I would have settled for a 10-12 story building in half the parcel – not a 6-story crap – so anything below or close to the height of the parking deck is a pathetic excuse in my book. I just hope some serious developer works with Gregg to redo Phase 1 (a.k.a. ”Waste Of Space Apartments”). Someone PLEASE make some common sense changes to this proposal. Why can’t we get something similar to the Skyhouse Apartments?

Yea, I guess we can’t complain since it IS a high-rise development — but let me just say, this building will look like a little sister of the PNC tower.  Judging from the elevation, it will have similar glass and similar bottom 3 floors stone accenting and it will be wide on the Martin St elevation and skinny on the Blount st elevation.  Oh well.  Its something.

Interesting note:  this proposal is 320 units on about 1/2 as much land as the 239 units for the ‘other’ Edison apartments.  Hmmm…

Also, let me share an observation with you: In the rendering, what seems to be a second building, is actually Two Progress Plaza, Red Hat’s new HQ. The site plan is actually for one building. I think that Gregg really wants to build something taller at the NW corner of the block, but there is no redemption from the Phase 1 crap, IMO. If he proceeds with Phase 1, he will have committed a “crime” against downtown. Something similar to Skyhouse project would be a better fit for the SE section of the block. Oh well, it is too late for this, I guess

http://www.raleighnc.gov/content/PlanCurrent/Documents/DevelopmentPlansReview/PlansInReview/2012/PlansSubmittalMapsByType/SitePlan/SP-016-12.pdf

Jimmy, there is no getting through to these people. I have no faith in them Believe me, the proposed hotel will not even be that visible, plus I think they have misplaced it a little (to the left). Not that I care much anymore, since this is a done deal, but it will be interesting to see what Crowder will say at the end – so much for the “iconic” building he wants to see. He and Stephenson should have gotten up in arms since they always talk about elegant architecture. At the end, we’ll be lucky if the Residence Inn even appears in the skyline…

The pedestrian and Carter Finley ideas will probably be in my next one, which im not sure when I will do because I will be away for the summer. But one of more people rather than cars and cityscapes would be interesting. Thanks for the input.

http://media.midtownraleighnews.com/smedia/2012/04/21/08/33/1jy2S4.St.160.jpg

anonymous, many thanks for sharing your video with us. It was indeed a good work on your part.

Daniel, you answered your own question The Gramercy will occupy the entire lot where 630 North would have gone. The last time I spoke to one of the developers of 630 North, he told me that they were revising the plans, but I figure they dropped the project altogether Sad, because it was truly a nice project. The Gramercy, if built, will be yet-another monolithic structure, similar to everything else that is going up these days, but it will fit nicely in Glenwood South, so I won’t complain about it As for The Edison, I consider it a missed opportunity for downtown and I fear that the developer will pull another Phase 1 trick to deliver yet-another crappy project at the end; I refer to Phases 2 and 3. At least the Reynoldses and Greg Hatem had the decency to give up, cut their losses and finally “disappear”. I hope that Gregg Sandreuter will do the same instead of associating his name with The Edison as it stands now.

It sucks that the small edison first phase is still getting built, I don’t know why he would design something to take up the whole south side of the block with just a 6 story! Glenwood south is getting a bigger project then centeral downtown (the Gramercy)! Well I hope the developers at least deliver the 20 to 22 story phase 2 project if not bigger and hopefully, phase 3 is the building we have all be waiting for and would make the 6 story building worth it!!

Here’s a link :: http://www.newraleigh.com/article/clyde-coopers-bbq-moving-to-old-greenshields-building/

The whole argument about density is also pointless, as the numbers show a clear advantage for Raleigh. Granted, we are not speaking of urban density in a traditional way. We need to keep in mind that ALL major NC cities are trying hard to create a more urban feel for their centers, with various degrees of success. Raleigh is not behind, with the exception of its skyline, which is not coming along as nicely as we hoped a few years ago.

Last, but not least, there is so much I love about DT Durham that I will speak cautiously. You asked what Raleigh has that Durham doesn’t. Some sort of skyline, for starters. Over 5500 people living within the downtown proper and more residents than any other NC city within a two-mile radius from the center. Life outside the central areas (i.e. North Hills, Brier Creek). Don’t rush to dismiss the two examples I offered because I have witnessed that with my own eyes. People actually walk there and not only for shopping. North Hills is actually developing into a model for more such projects in the Triangle, although we are a few years away before we see more of that. Nightlife that caters to many different people and covers more than a couple of spots. Carolina Hurricanes, a professional sports team.  Now, both cities have common pros and cons. They both benefit from RTP, but also get hurt by it. Both cities have done some historic preservation to speak of. Both cities have supported technology companies, college sports, organic businesses, arts. Also, both cities suffer from city leaders that waste their time on small things and fail to see the massive potential of the places they represent. The list can go on and on…

james, welcome back The answer to your question is that if – and I need to emphasize “if” – that lady wasn’t BSing me, that building would have been built by now. The current developers can’t even get financing, let alone build one of the two buildings. Did the city do the right thing? We’ll never know, but as it stands we haven’t seen any progress and therefore we cannot say with certainty that they made the right choice either. That 40-story proposal was made a very long time ago and there is a good chance it could have been successful. We’ll never know now…

There are two differences between the hotel Uptown and the one proposed here: a) location and b) Uptown Charlotte has other many great buildings to make up for the eyesore. By location, I mean that it is a small block away from Fayetteville Street. Site 4 is a prime location for an iconic building, which doesn’t have to be 40 stories, but it does need to be visible and attractive; the proposed hotel is neither. In Uptown Charlotte, the hotel is located near the “edges”, something equivalent to Glenwood South, or the Warehouse District. I have no problem with this building going there, but Site 4 is a very different story.

Thanks for the update regarding Cherokee. I am not sure they are strong enough to pull a little miracle in Raleigh, but I will keep an eye on them, just in case. Sometimes unloading properties could mean an attempt to reorganize and focus on one area. Who knows?

Carver, regardless of the sorry state of our skyline, I think that the ongoing projects will do miracles for downtown. Once Red Hat moves to downtown, other relocations will follow, and maybe we will eventually get a bigger entity in our downtown. The pedestrian activity will definitely increase, that’s for sure. I am not pessimistic about our street-level, though… It is our skyline that scares the crap out of me. The NC SECU Bldg may prove to be a good start with regards to bolder architecture. If THEY succeed with leasing their office space, maybe they will consider something more

A little off topic, but you did ask about Raleigh-based Cherokee Partners’ Southend project awhile back. Cherokee has sold off much of that land to JLB Parters. JLB Partners are currently constructing 200 or so units to be called “Southline”. The project is not yet on JLB’s website, but the construction is underway (and has been for about 3 months now).

Now that I’ve thought about it; maybe Cherokee decided to save their money in order to do something “big” in their own backyard? Who knows? Still though, I think some of you guys are taking this 11 story hotel to the extreme. Think of it like this. What city in this state is building a downtown hotel this year? It certainly isn’t Charlotte. I have serious doubts about Asheville, Wilmington, Winston, and Durham. Salisbury and/or Hickory lol; PLEASE!!!! So be thankful that Raleigh is still building downtown.

The one advantage Raleigh has had over other cities over the years is…………we have Durham.  most other cities have to incorporate that crap into their own city limits. Just watch the first 3 ‘violent crimes’ on the news on any given night and tell me where 95% of the time where it occurs………..Dur……ham.

james980, Site 4 is a parcel where city leaders have total and complete control. They can create the RFP and use the proper language. If a developer can’t bring a good quality project of decent size and architecture, then he/she should not be considered. Is there some sort of favoritism? You bet. I spoke with a developer from Atlanta regarding her company’s answer to the initial Site 1 and Site 4 RFPs. She was proposing a residential high-rise of about 40 floors for Site 1 and she had secured the financing aspect – assuming she wasn’t lying about it. Yet, our city leaders chose the local group and their initial proposal for a 12-story office and an 8-story residential building; they later increased the size to 20 and 14 floors, respectively, but who says they won’t pull a trick similar to The Edison? Bottom line, the reason why I complain is not just the quality of the project, but rather the location. This is a city-owned parcel and the parking spaces that will be offered to the hotel developers are also in a city-owned parking deck. This project would fit better on Hillsborough Str, Moore Square, The Warehouse District or Glenwood South.

Also, in a totally unrelated note, has anyone heard anything about the Salvation Army site? I know they were talking about moving this year (in September) and between the renovation at the Moore Square Parking Deck, a possible new residential area at the SA property and a new residential area at the Edison (sorry, I know it’s not what everyone wanted, but it WILL mean more residents in the area), Moore Square could be looking pretty good in a few years. 

My3cents, you know I am with you on the height of NC SECU’s new building, but it is all speculative office space and NC SECU would/should not risk a lot at this point. Who knows, if they succeed in leasing it all within a short time frame, they may expand with more projects. I would have loved to see a 20-story high-rise there, but there were other restrictions in place, including state officials who would argue against anything “too tall” on state government soil… Remember, they don’t want something tall near the Capitol Bldg. Go figure… The good news is, it will be very hard for the city leaders to turn down something over 15 floors if proposed between Quorum Center and NC SECU Bldg. That is, IF anyone proposes anything in the next few years

Carver, I share your enthusiasm, and I hope that some day the Centennial Campus will get connected with the rest of the area in an urban/semi-urban fashion. There is a lot of potential and when I drive through the campus – rarely, but I do that – I like the feel. Imagine if our city was laid out in a similar fashion!!!

jarred, you did the right thing, and we should probably do the same – contact the developers and urge them to deliver something better and larger in scale. I am afraid I don’t have the strength to offset my frustration and make my case without offending the developers, but if I do find the strength I will email them, as well.

Dwight, Nancy has already stated something regarding the size of the the proposed Public Safety Center. She has led us to believe that she would approve a scaled-down version, and we all know what this means. Either it will happen as a low-rise, or it will be built in another location, isolated and scaled-down just the same. I prefer that we shelve this project for a few years in order to salvage it. We need to get a few of these gutless city leaders out of any decision-making positions and replace them with individuals who can: a) improve the city’s finances and b) think big and with the future in mind. Until then, we can only hope that fiascoes like The [new] Edison and Site 4 will not happen again. This city can stay busy and make progress without killing the chances for downtown. We can easily work on increasing Glenwood South’s urbanity, improve our finances and work on a few small area plans (i.e. Blue Ridge Road District). By the time we get those right, the economy will have turned and some serious developers may warm up to the idea of investing in DT Raleigh. Somehow, I don’t see this happening without replacing several of our city leaders.

That being said, I wish you luck in your proposal, I look forward to seeing some development in the area. 

Mike, any  building above 5 stories would “stick out” and overshadow the smaller structures, historic or otherwise. If you – or your client – can secure the financing, then a 15+ story should be a no-brainer. Think of Pearl District (Portland, OR)… Someone has to build something of decent size in The Warehouse District and taller buildings will follow. Do it now, before the smaller thinkers force the proposed rezoning down everyone’s throats. Even the half hearted members of our City Council cannot reject it based on the height. Besides, there is hardly “neighborhood” we can speak of at this point. I don’t know exactly where this project will go, but it can be precisely what Deveraux, The Dawson and Hue SHOULD have been. If the building has a decent architecture, even the usual suspects would be hard-pressed to give it two thumbs up. Keep us posted, if you don’t mind.

Daniel, you are right on the money with your question. If we need another 500-700 rooms, why the Hell do we approve this crap? The size is final, as far as we know. The Summit Hospitality Group has made this clear. I wish they had worked with Gregg Sandreuter to make this hotel part of The Edison, but I guess Summit Hospitality Group lacks vision just as much as our city leaders. It is a shame that we are led to believe that we’ll have other opportunities to correct this mess in the future. If we can’t get the smaller projects away from Fayetteville Street, then our skyline’s fate has been sealed. Let’s not kid ourselves, there will be no opportunities for our skyline in the next 10 years, or even longer. We are doomed to see buildings of 10-20 stories, if we are lucky, and quite honestly I am convinced that 10-12 stories will be the norm.

Damn the fools that lead our city… Spineless, gutless and blind

* The Edison – Scaled down to an inferior project.
* The Hillsborough – Even the 23-story version was far greater than what we got now. Now as dead as Disco music.
* Lafayette – A very beautiful project. Not overwhelming, but not underwhelming either. Another dead project.
* Marriott Hotel (convnention hotel) – Sad to hear that there are people who actually like that building. Still, an eyesore in Raleigh’s skyline.
* Progress Energy – Losing them is going to be a major blow to our downtown, especially if the merger doesn’t happen. Most of the employees will move to locations outside downtown.
* Loss of RBC’s U.S. headquarters.
* Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center – A victim of indecision and poor planning. Thankfully, not a dead project, but with Nancy at the helm, the once proponent will cast a ‘No’ vote at the end.
* Union Station/Warehouse District – What we got out of this vision is the danger of yet-another case of bad (re)zoning. The kind of (re)zoning that makes no sense.
* Blount Street Commons – Did the city ever objected the site plan, like it should? While this project is on state-owned property, the city should have immediately rejected the crap that it is turning out to be.
* Dorothea Dix – While some may disagree, the city’s involvement has disappointed. We went from supporting a great vision put forth by ULI, to being willing to spend millions of dollars on a vision that would actually cost us a lot in the future to maintain.
* Charter Square – While no evidence that this project is heading for failure, I fear that we’ll see a fate similar to The Edison’s.

Naturally, there are also many good projects to speak of, but where the city leaders have a saying, I don’t see them demonstrating guts and vision. They seem to be very satisfied with little things, while other cities (i.e. Austin) do get high-quality projects that enhance not only the street-level experience, but also the skyline (a.k.a. image) of the city. This is EXACTLY what bothers me: gutless city leaders. The RFP for Site 4 should have specified a number o rooms that would force the developer to go up. Let’s say at least 250 rooms, which is not only doable, but also needed. After all, this is a city-owned property.

Remember how many of the above bullet points used to make us happy and excited? How fast have they become a source of disappointment for many of us!!! This is not the end of the world for DT Raleigh, but it surely is one step closer to the wrong direction and two steps away from the right direction. The current leadership will need to be replaced entirely before hope is fully restored.

Also, those are the apartments going up in ‘the most important property in Raleigh’? Those aren’t actually that bad, pretty bland, like everything else, but not terrible. 

Also, in some good news, the NCNSM is opening their Nature Research Center this Friday. It’s the first such center, IN THE WORLD. It’s a big deal, it also has the largest emerald ever cut in North America (NC is the largest emerald producer outside of South America). There’s also a T-Rex model apparently and a magnificent lobby with a three tiered stairwell and a beautiful shimmer wall-type structure. The globe theater is going to broadcast science lessons all over the state. I figured since everyone was so depressed about this hotel crap, I might as well bring some good news. It’s part of DT’s progress towards become a major cultural center. I only wish I was able to attend, but currently I’m on the other side of the world. 

“We look to the past with admiration for old hotels that were both “in and of” their communities. They were locally owned and passionately run to serve not only the traveling public, but their neighbors as well. They were real centers of community life and a source of pride to their cities. Then came interstate highways and commercial aviation, along with some technical advances in hotel facility design, and poof, the community-centered hotels disappeared. In their place came national, corporately owned, brand name hotels, situated along the highways or near airports. These hotels don’t fill the place of the old hotels in the hearts of their neighbors. While they are within the city limits, they are not “in and of” the community and neighborhoods. So, we thought, “Let’s look forward and bring back the neighborhood, community-centered hotels of old.”

It will be a shame if an evil half-stepsister of the Marriot is erected on Site 4. This location seems perfect for something so much more grand. The current proposal is more appropriately suited for the airport or Glenwood South at most. Put it near the Hampton!

Oh well, that would make too much sense, I guess

Just a few more tall buildings in the right location and Raleigh could have a very nice skyline. You wonder why city and private investors cant get together and work on one tall mixed use building at a time somewhere in the 30-40 story range. And the Lightner building would have helped fill in the gap between the Wachovia and PNC buildings. Maybe it’ll still be built.

On the other hand, THIS proposal by Summit Group is, IMO, a MAJOR slap on the face of DT Raleigh. I expect such projects in the Brier Creek area, not in DT Raleigh, especially when the hotel developer will get parking spaces in the adjacent deck. Worst case scenario, hey can build this in Glenwood South, or The Warehouse District. They are NOT doing us a favor by investing $23 million in downtown. There are many people who have invested a lot of energy and put a ton of hard work to promote downtown over the years. Summit Group is a newcomer and they haven’t proven anything to us yet. To them, it is a great investment, that’s all.

Steve’s comment on elegance is right on the money. It takes a long time and we need to start somewhere. However, this is also another reason I am complaining: There is no elegance to talk about. This is going to be a “cookie cutter hotel” as per the developer’s initial input. Getting a project for the sake of getting something is not going to set the tone for good things to come. It will send the exact opposite message, which is clear and loud: “We are desperate, so bring us anything and we’ll approve it.”

Sorry, my friends, I don’t want to be negative, but I cannot settle for so much less. It is painful, at best Going from a city that almost got to the next level – where it should have been a long time ago – to a city that settles for so much less, it is not exactly the right direction, and pathetic excuses like Phase 1 of The Edison and Summit Group’s proposal will become death sentences for DT Raleigh’s skyline. Mark my words, if we accept crap like this, next thing you know is that Charter Square gets reduced to 12 and 8 floors (instead of 20 and 15).

The new issue of TBJ has an article about Summit Group’s 11-story crappy proposal for Site 4 being the front runner. I haven’t read the entire article, so I don’t know what the other proposals are, but Summit Group’s pathetic excuse of a project is not just small, it is butt-ugly – there is a rendering in the article. If they win the bid and build this crap we will have two eyesore hotel’s across from each other. Let’s see if the Crowder-Stephenson duo will stand up to this, although they may be satisfied that we didn’t get anything larger. I will try to find more about the other proposals, but if you find anything before I do, please post it here.

On a more upbeat note, there is a study for the Blue Ridge Road District – the area across from the Fairgrounds, to the North-East. Feel free to send me an email if you can’t find the relevant information online, but I must say that I was more than satisfied with the vision. It is urban and very appropriate for that location. Of course, I will believe it when I see it, but I am glad we are taking some steps to the right direction, even though our downtown doesn’t get the “respect” it deserves.

Protesting this project, in any way, would only generate laughter by the majority, or they would completely ignore us, at best. Not that we don’t have the right idea, but the decision makers will not be moved by this action. Thus far, I can see us making the difference by contacting several entities that could influence the outcome in some way. For example, Mitch Silver (Planning Dept), David Diaz (DRA) and most definitely the city council members. We have to find ways to explain how the city center’s fabric will not benefit from underwhelming projects. Let’s hit the sensitive side of the usual suspects by mentioning preservation. In this case, most of us know that there is little to preserve, but if the existing businesses will have to relocate, it’d better be due to an exceptional project, not one-of-the-same, dime-a-dozen projects.

Last, but not least, if anyone here is close to the developer, feel free to let him know how we feel. I have Gregg’s contact information, but I am not a close acquaintance, and I will not contact him strictly for complaining. As one of his supporters, I feel betrayed and let down, but that is not good enough to pick up the phone and call the developer. He is a good guy, but he needs to understand that his 6-story proposal is going to be a dark chapter in the modern history of DT Raleigh. He can contrast that with his Phase 2 proposal, which sounds attractive, even though he had to scale it down.

Unfortunately, as many of us know, most of the city leaders are gutless. They make so much noise about important issues, but they don’t walk the walk. At the end, they will find someone to blame for their own ineffectiveness. We need someone with Donald Trump’s straight-shooter attitude, either in the city council or as an investor. Gregg is taking the wrong path and if I were a city council member I would ensure that he doesn’t get the chance to develop a single piece of publicly-owned property. In The Edison deal the city wasn’t a major stakeholder, like in Sites One, Four, etc., but there will be other opportunities and Gregg should not be given anything in the CBD. He is a good guy, but delivering a 6-story building in prime real estate is a slap on our face and that cannot be excused, nor forgotten – if this crap actually gets built.

Since Gregg doesn’t have an official website for his group, and his email address is not publicly available – I am sure it can be found, of course – we cannot send him a letter with our suggestions and share our disappointment (those of us who are disappointed), but we can still email our city leaders, including the Planning Dept. They need to know that while we respect the concept of ownership, we also need to make sure that good quality projects are delivered, especially in the downtown area. Given the ongoing projects in our city, the Phase 1 of The Edison provides nothing special, nor it will make our downtown a more attractive place to be. While a high-rise apartment building may provide a unique addition (for DT Raleigh), yet-another monolithic low-rise apartment building will accomplish nothing.

This past weekend I had a chance to chat (briefly) with one of our NIMBY-supported council members. I said in a funny tone “I hope you’ll not approve that 6-story part of Edison”, to which he replied “We can’t tell the developer what to do with his land”. Good answer, except this doesn’t apply to suburban developers. In that case, he thinks we should tell them what to do… In the case of The Edison, the city should have some saying because of the parking deck, plus the fact that we are trying to implement some urban guidelines, appropriate for downtown. Sure we can tell the developer that his building should overwhelm the parking deck and not the other way around, as shown in the architectural drawings. Sorry for bringing this up again, but I am disgusted at the double standards that the city council tries to apply when it comes to development. I hate the suburban patterns of building communities, but if we can tell suburban developers what to do, should it also be the case for those building in the downtown area?

Mike already asked, but I will repeat the question: Why not build a taller structure on one of the SW corner of the block, rather than the crappy 6-story garbage Gregg proposed? What the Hell, has he lost his mind? The 6-story proposal is nothing more than a monolithic structure that does dis-service to our downtown and destroys our vision, including his own.

But rent-free space on the ground floor for a grocery store?!?!  I’m willing to bet Piggly Wiggly would entertain the thought and get their foot in the Raleigh market with this high-profile store.  This would be their flagship store in Raleigh; while for Kroger, Food Lion, and Harris Teeter a downtown location would be just another Raleigh store.

Fletcher Park is well-used because there are so many residents in close proximity. Devereaux Meadows will need more foot traffic.

Change of subject. The N&O mentions the city’s plans to turn the former Devereaux Meadows into an urban park. Not many details, but I am glad to see something planned for that area. Maybe the city leaders will give up the whole Dorothea Dix campus debate and do things that they actually can do, without depending on the state government’s good will.

Anyway, we’ll see what will happen. Even if we were a mere candidate it says a lot. The people who invest on MLS teams are not exactly the easiest to convince and they might have seen something here that most Triangle residents don’t. Naturally, we want them to be as close to downtown as possible, as well as near future rail stations.

Location-wise, I agree with you. I like the ULI plan and I think we could incorporate a soccer stadium into the park, without ruining the “landscape”. We can build it right across the prison, to offset the negative effects of the latter. Make it visible from Western Blvd and include some additional street-level development along that stretch (i.e. restaurants, cafes, sporting goods). I am not going to argue over the capacity, but I would like the idea of creating plans that would allow us to expand the stadium in the future, if needed. Initial capacity, though, should be anywhere between 15,000 and 20,000. During the years when Rochester Rhinos played against Raleigh Flyers and Capital Express, they had an average attendance at home of 11,000 people, and they were not an MLS team. Rochester’s population – city and MSA – are lower than Raleigh’s, let alone the Triangle’s.

I strongly believe that we can do well, no matter what the pundits want us to believe; never mind my own biases for soccer, as I separate “business” from personal preferences. Soccer is only going to be on the rise in this country, so this is a chance for us to get a professional team and create a soccer-friendly culture. Juventus’ exhibition game in our area was a good beginning, although the event wasn’t advertised, was announced the last minute, and took place on a crappy hot and ultra-humid Thursday night. Although the attendance was low, the organizers were happy and implied future exhibition games, with respectable soccer teams, in our area. The men’s soccer team preparation in Cary was also a recognition for the Triangle’s soccer “tradition”. Call me an optimist, but I feel good about this.

Looking at an aerial it seems like there could be room for a stadium if they forego changes to Cap Blvd and also move West St. further West towards the RR tracks. This would entail buying out a few business though. But, there’s the pesky problem of Pidgeon Creek running through the middle of this area. The plan at present for Devereux Meadows is to remove parking lots and convert remaining land (after Cap Blvd is widened) into a greenway and park. Also, I doubt the NUMBYs (misspelling intended) over in historic Glenwood/Brooklyn Heights neighborhood would be in love with the idea of a stadium. Hmmm … 10,000 20,000 screaming fans parking their cars up and down their quiet streets. Don’t think so!The Capital Blvd Corridor study is interesting reading. Search the City of Raleigh website. One day that shopping center where the flea market is (next to Bobby Murray Chev.)  could be transformed into a residential mixed use area. The plan is to tear down all the buildings in middle area where North and South Capital Blvd are split apart, move the Northbound lanes over to the Southbound lanes and then create an urban park. Like I said, this report is interesting reading. The timeline for getting this portion of the project completed is 15 years! Can’t be in too big a hurry around here.

As far as the farmer’s market, I’m actually 100% in agreement with Nick. I’m fully in favor of improving the farmers market, whether it’s connectivity, parking or whatever. I’m in support of the ULI’s plan for the Dix Park, which calls for about 100 acres of development, including the incorporation of the FM  as the centerpiece of a new neighborhood. If we were able to keep around 200 acres for a park and incorporate a stadium into the framework of a new development near Western, then I would support it. I’m not intransigent on the issue, but I am staunchly in support of at least a 200 acre park. 

Another possibility would be combining the 2 blocks directly east of Moore Square for a stadium.

I agree with wv2nc, though… Dorothea Dix property may be a great place to put a soccer stadium. I can only begin to imagine the view of the skyline from there Maybe our friend Matt could use one of those photos from Dorothea Dix – the angle shown recently, with the fog – and place a nice stadium right on the front

A fellow forumer who visits this forum – but doesn’t post – shared with me a great vision. If he reads this I would encourage him to share his thoughts because he and I had nice discussions via emails, and I feel that he has some great ideas for a soccer stadium in DT Raleigh. I wonder if our city leaders are prepared to put together a decent and attractive package of incentives. We don’t have much cash, but here is our chance to get creative.

But, yeah, it’s really cool that MLS people have the Raleigh area under consideration.

This is great news.  I’d assume that a jump from the NASL division to the MLS league would require a new stadium at which point they could relocate to downtown Raleigh.  Following the model that many other MLS teams have used for success recently, the key target demographic is the young professional.  Stadiums in urban areas where people can make a night out of the gameday experience with restaurants and bars nearby have been a huge draw.