NCSUkid… hell yes! can’t wait for the crowds to die down a little and then my wife and i will be on a shopping spree. i’ve been in withdrawl since leaving boston

Recruiting businesses to Raleigh – particularly downtown – would require state, city and county governments to cooperate and synchronize their efforts. When Cary, with only $75,000 of incentives on its part, manages to attract Deutsche Bank’s data center and Raleigh’s leaders argue over spilled milk, what do we expect? Sure, a data center isn’t the same with a regional operations center, but we should be able to attract at least something of importance. Our governor has a lot on her plate and I am sure that recruiting businesses in DT Raleigh is nowhere near her list of priorities. Unfortunately, the state government has not been a good citizen when it comes to urban planning, let alone a cheerleader for DT Raleigh.

I love what Portland has done with Pearl District and I hope that both Glenwood South and Warehouse District could use it as a model, particularly as pertaining to the new buildings. Prices at the Pearl District can be insane and I don’t want that for DT Raleigh, but the latter is also expensive for what it offers. Please, y’all, bear with me as I am trying to put a few parallels in place:

PEARL DISTRICT
The transformation started back in the 80’s, although the two major steps took place in 1994 and 2000. First, Hoyt Street Properties acquired and redeveloped the 34-acre Burlington Northern rail yard; a $600 million urban redevelopment project. Then, a Portland developer – who says local boys cannot do it – Gerding/Edlen purchased the Blitz-Weinhard Brewery and redeveloped it into housing and retail, while preserving the historical aspect of the property. Probably, this would scream Durham more than Raleigh.

WAREHOUSE DISTRICT/GLENWOOD SOUTH
The transformation begun in the early 90’s, mostly with entertainment destinations occupying renovated warehouses. 510 Glenwood was a pivotal project back then, although momentum was picked up for Glenwood South with projects like Quorum Center, 222 Glenwood, West At North and Solas, although every project counts (i.e. Park Deveraux, Hudson, Hue, Campbell School of Law).

My point is, we do not need to be concerned about getting a tall skyline right now. We can be an attractive place simply by filling up a few gaps and improving transportation, at least by connecting nearby areas to downtown – a light rail would be nice. Then, we can dream big, once city leaders take several smaller things off their plate and focus on attracting a few major corporations to DT Raleigh.

Sorry for yet-another lengthy post

As far as downtown/skyline goes, again I think it has a lot to do with better planning. Over the last few years the city & developers have invested a lot of time and money planning and building more mixed-use buildings downtown and in the Pearl District. Although they can be absurdly expensive, the city requires some of the buildings to have smaller/less expensive units and even place some apts. below market rate. Now, that might not sound good to everyone but IT WORKS! It’s gets more people living downtown and socio-economic mix it provides… well, I think most people love it. It’s also a great way to get a younger people close to work. There are also TONS of apartment/studio buildings on the edge of downtown and many older, large houses that have been subdivided. Anyway, getting off topic. Both cities are great in their own right.

Another reason why we should care is because Charlotte is a North Carolina municipality, also helped by state government incentives when it comes to relocations. Can Raleigh get a little more aggressive in that department, so we can lure additional corporations with some help from the state government (once the crisis is over)? I think we could and should. Since we are just getting our feet wet in the finance world, we may attract several smaller banks in the beginning, but I hope there will be a day when we’ll be able to compete with places like Charlotte. Until then, we can learn a few things from the Queen City.

Just my 2 cents…

Atlanta is simply a huge sprawling metro, but it has both the population and image to place itself in the big cities league. Let’s be fair to Charlotte. It has the population and the vision to become a better city than Atlanta – many would argue that it is a better city, already – but it will be another 20-30 years before we compare Charlotte to today’s Atlanta. However, I would not consider Atlanta a world-class city, I am sorry. This is what separates, in my opinion, real big cities from the up-and-coming and wanna-be big cities. Raleigh may never reach that level, but I will be happy to see it becoming more like Portland, minus a few things that I don’t care to see, like cost of living and the amount of grit you find in Portland. Guess you have to take the good with the bad, in every case.

One more thing: Charlotte’s population in 1990 was about 395,000 people (Raleigh was about 212,000 then), approximately the same with Raleigh’s population 1-2 years ago. Sure, aggressive annexing helps, but that is not the point of our discussion. The fact remains: Charlotte is much larger than Raleigh and will remain so for many years to come. Where both cities are at the same level is the missing urbanity, contrary to some people’s efforts to say otherwise

Lee L, I am in agreement with what you said. And I also agree with John Odom’s proposal – assuming I understood correctly. Put this baby to vote after making a strong case for this project and see what the taxpayers would say. Although I do not want to hear anything about a new property tax increase, I would settle for it if we were to get this wonderful project. I am confident that the residents in our city would look at this project as a much needed addition and the 5th vote would come. Still, I would not rush to “attack” Bonner Gaylord. He is right in MANY levels, but if there was a developer who could bring us something more impressive, by all means, build the new HQ somewhere else and save on the infrastructure enhancements.

Another possibility: Find a few good developers who can [hopefully] build 3/4 of the block, surround the new safety center from the West, North-West and North with taller buildings, and fortify it so no human outside those who work there can access it. The new city hall may become part of this high-rise – yes, make it taller by another 5-6 floors – and use the taxes from the 3 towers towards the public safety center. Maybe it sounds hard to accomplish, but it is doable, especially if we make it a goal for the next 5 years. By then, the economy will have taken a turn for the better, I hope.

I think that contributed to the lack of presenting a good argument for the place. They just assumed it would be built and went from there. Now, I will say that they fact the the council (with many of hte same members) has voted to spend $20 plus million so far might have been pushing to think it was more or less a dumb deal. (and as more of a conservative leaner, I can;t say I am too happy spending that much money on something and then get nothing to show for it.) I also beleive that Raleigh needs this building, or at least something similar due to growth and poor facilities going back years. I have no problem spending money on something needed. I also prefer Tax money be spent as close as possible to where it was taken. Small Federal Government and larger local. Again, this meets that criteria, IMO. And while I don’t neccesarrily beleive that goverment should dump money on make work projects,if this was needed any time soon, it is better from an economic development and business climate standpoint to do it now, when the construction sector is really hurting.

I think there were plenty of good arguements to have been made on this thing on pretty much all sides of the issue and the fact that they did little to none of this is why it was tanked. Again, poor leadership from the leader of the City of Raleigh!

Gene, there are still cities that amaze us with the skyline boost they get, even during tough times. Austin is also a good example. However, the question remains: how many of these projects will remain viable in the future? Yes, the skyline will get the boost, but when will be the next boom? I must agree, though. Raleigh needs to get its act together and leave places like Bellevue in the dust, instead of the other way around. Not that Bellevue doesn’t deserve respect, in contrary. Raleigh is still a larger city and gets better grades than Bellevue. Seattle is a very different level, though, so I won’t say anything about it.

One thing I do not understand is why do we keep repeating the “savings” in construction costs argument… There is no such thing when our city is in debt. If someone offers you a high-end Ferrari for half the price, will you still go out there and buy it? The answer is “No”. Our credit is not good enough – hence the property tax increase – and if some of you think that building this high-rise will be the solution to a debt that approaches $1 billion, then we are a city that will face far worse challenges. People are not prepared for the financial mess that Meeker and others want to drag us into. So, let’s take it easy and instead of putting pressure on the 4 members who voted “No”, put some pressure on the ones who voted “No”. Make them work harder to address the real issues, be that the final cost or the financing terms.

As a contrast, Wake County is moving forward with the new County Justice Center. The N&O had a great article on how this project is moving without tax increases and how the county leaders silently worked on this project without much opposition. Maybe Meeker can learn something from them. The new Justice Center took 10 years in planning, and while we may not be exactly satisfied with the final design, County leaders are delivering, without much ado.

Nothing is lost. Let’s keep pressuring both sides and not focus on the opposition, only. Nobody in the latter debates the need for new HQ and they all hope to see something major on the proposed location, except from a private developer.

While I do not wish to see a split of these facilities, I must say that if we are honest about the urgency for a new public safety center, we can spend a lot less by moving the employees into a campus-like HQ, which can be expanded in the future and house even more facilities. Now, that is the best case scenario if we want to be sincere about balancing the true needs against the costs. As our city’s debt approaches – if it is not already above – $1 billion, this is a good time to consider how we can proceed without adding another 25% to the existing burden. We are speaking about a HUGE debt for a city like Raleigh. People keep talking about vision, but if they can’t see the rapidly increasing debt, then their argument is pointless. Building high-rises doesn’t demonstrate vision. Building them in a cost-effective way says a lot more for a city’s vision, IMO. Building this great vision without burdening the tax-payers any more than they are already burdened would demonstrate true vision and good leadership. We are half way there and the problem is not those who vote “No”. Until the case for this project is presented properly, those votes will not change… Who wants to add his/her name on the list of city leaders who wish to put Raleigh into a greater debt?

Somehow, I am still hoping that we’ll get this building, even with a few more delays and several rounds of arguments.

What I do NOT want to see is another 5 or 6 story building in the heart of downtown – especially one that generates NO income for the city’s tax base. You nailed it on the head – we need to save that land as it could be valuable to a developer that can bring additional density downtown. I would think that if the direction is to go ahead and break this thing down into 2 or 3 buildings, they should be considering a different site – I would think the warehouse district would accommodate these services well. Let’s not be wasting a chance to develop valuable downtown parcels by spending our tax dollars and shooting future development in the foot at the same time. I like the warehouse district because growth there seems to have stagnated as of late (I see more closing there than I do opening), and it has perfect proximity to downtown – AND – growing Glenwood South. Second point about the warehouse district – it’s not likely to grow to grow rapidly (at least nothing I foresee for the next several years), so if there are concerns about the need for future expansion to these offices, there is better opportunity for it to happen there. Third point – it gives that area a small shot in the arm and eliminates much of the vacant feel it currently has. Long story short – if the current 16 story design is not an option, they’d better automatically be looking elsewhere for site locations.

Once upon a time, our city leaders stressed the importance of preserving redevelopment space downtown for a chance to create density (that means skyward, folks). Someone – it might have been Mayor Meeker – pointed out that going the route of nothing but these 5, 8, 10-floor mid-rise developments would hinder this process, not help it along. I’d kind of like to know what the hell happened there?

Anyway, like Dwight said, let’s not give up, write to our city council members, encourage them to move forward carefully. The mayor’s latest proposal for a much lower tax burden is far more solid and should allow us to be flexible, assuming we do not get hit again by new tax increases – maybe the city can commit to a tax freeze for he next 10 years, or so. Police and Fire departments should also become more active and present some solid ideas and reasons why we need something like the new Public Safety Center, ASAP.

Here is a question: what if the city decides to build this center elsewhere, but break it down to 2-3 smaller buildings, near downtown? What if the city decides to sell this parcel to a private developer, provided he builds something major? Condos are out of the question because of that stupid eyesore (AT&T Building) across from there. Would you have problem with this? I know I wouldn’t

How about explain in public just what will be moved there. Seems like people are assuming that every single cop in all of Raleigh will be based out of the building (I assume they are not abandoning the precicnts they have but have no way of knowing this going by what has been said in places like the newspaper or TV.

I bid on a small renovation project in the police building 10 years ago and it was a tiny craphole then. I’m sorry, but as a city expands and ages, things need to be kept up to date. Eventually all this putting things off blindly in the name of low taxes (I am pretty conservative but I do not beleive we have onerous taxes in this area and close to home is where we should spend our tax money anyway, IMO) will catch up and suddenly Raleigh will not be so desireable to live in. If that happens, it just might make the current housing situation look rosy.

Also gotta add my two cents (okay, one cent) to the Winston skyline mini-discussion. I agree with the assessment that the Winston skyline is in its own way maybe a little nicer than Raleigh’s, exactly for the reason due to placement of buildings, as others have said – but I am myself still partial to Raleigh’s, mainly to the newer architecture of our taller buildings. I think we can also boast the fact that it will grow a lot faster than W-S’s in the near future as well (knocking on wood for that one). But – I do really love that Wachovia Center tower in Winston-Salem and that domed roof. I find myself daydreaming often about how fantastic it would look placed in downtown Raleigh between Wachovia Capital Center and RBC Plaza…..