Too bad you don’t want to hear from those who really want to preserve most of the park - as found with the dix306 plan.
(http://www.dix306.com/ ). A large number of people are in favor of this plan.
So, I’ll add my voice to the Spam much option, as this pole is obviously biased.
– JW.

Joe, you seem to be missing the point - I’m all for the discussion on this issue (in fact, bring it on). People are free to post whatever their opinion is on this topic. But as for an automated bot racking up votes on a poll in support of one choice? That’s what I am calling out here.

Sorry Matt… you missed the boat. You poll was flawed from the beginning. No one is going to revisit your “revised” poll. Who would trust someone who changes the rules mid-stream.

There was no bott or script. Check the IP addresses… they were all real people in favor of “All Park”. But you changed the poll and people were confused. The votes you were seeing was an organized response from supporters of the Dix306 plan as a result of an email sent to Dix306 supporters on the morning of April 30.

You blew it!

The Dix property is so important to save for the sanity of the people who live down town as well as bringing people into town.We are growing futher and further apart ,working in cubicles and plugged into iods.We need to be outside enjoying the calmness of nature…Dorthea would approve.

I guess all of those DIX 306 yard signs in Raleigh are not real people either. Are those spam-bot houses with yard signs? Of course most people want to preserve this land. It’s the right thing to do.

From Joe: “Too bad you don’t want to hear from those who really want to preserve most of the park”
We are always open to hear anyone’s opinion, that’s why we allow comments on any topic. I’m sorry you feel the pole was biased, but we would never influence a poll on our own ideas on what we believe. We saw some suspicious behavior and commented on it. Unfortunately internet based polls like this can be toyed with, and I apologized for the valid votes we got from new visitors to the page. We understand there is a strong following to preserve the Dorthia Dix land, we see the signs of support everywhere in and around Raleigh, and we have nothing against that.

Feel free to have your voice actually heard. We welcome peoples comments on our podcast here, and we are sure to discuss this topic in an upcoming podcast. Feel free to email us at podcast@raleighskyline.com or even better, leave us a voice mail in our podcast inbox (206)203-CAST (2278). We will be happy to air anyones opinion on our show.

From Larry: “There was no bott or script. Check the IP addresses… they were all real people in favor of “All Park”.”
Again we understand there are real people voting and in favor for “All Park”, but we did check IP addresses and sadly some IPs were UK and Europe based IP. We find it hard to believe that our friends over the “lake” care about this topic. We didn’t blow anything.

We welcome interaction like this on our podcast. Everyone is welcome to have any opinion they want, it’s a free world, and we welcome the diversity. The internet is a funny place where some people take safety behind their keyboard. Matt and I put our voices out there to be heard from week to week on our podcast. We invite others to join us.

Let’s keep it civil guys.
Dustin
podcast@raleighskyline.com
(206) 203-CAST

I found this site from the Cameron Park Yahoogroup. Here’s the post,

“—– Original Message —–
From: info@dixpark.org
To: thetotalconcept@nc.rr.com
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: [DixPark] Raleighskyline.com Poll about Dix

Deal DixPark supporter,

A local Web site, http://www.raleighskyline.com has posted an online poll about what should be done with the land at Dorothea Dix. This, of course, is unscientific, but the public perception on this issue is important.

We encourage you to vote for “all park” in this online poll. Please click here: http://www.raleighskyline.com The poll is posted on the upper right side of the home page.

Thank you!

FDDP & DIX306

__._,_.___ “

These DIX306 people scare me!!!

From Official Dustin : “We find it hard to believe that our friends over the “lake” care about this topic.”

You might want to take a look at the DixPark online petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/701151943

This petition has been signed by over 3700 folks, 262 from outside North Carolina and 18 from outside the US.

Time to get in touch with my friends overseas and ask them to vote against the all-park idea

There have been buildings on the Dix property for decades and the vast majority of Raleigh’s citizens have managed to stay sane, despite being “plugged into iods” [sic].

To me, it is insane to tell a website’s owners “check IP logs” as if they couldn’t think to do that themselves.

It is insane to think that 3,500 people (the ones from inside NC) and a couple hundred yard signs somehow translates into “most people” in a city of of over 350,000.

It is insane to think that area needs more park land with Pullen and Chavis Parks nearby

It is insane to think that Health and Human Services will be able to find replacement office space for the cost of selling the Dix land.

It is insane to think
- the state will sell the Dix land for next to nothing to a non-profit
- that non-profit will be able to tear down every building already there
- that non-profit will make something useful out of the land
- this will all be paid for by the tax on the increase in property values of the nearby area. Especially since most of the surrounding area generates *no* tax revenue (NC State, Central Prison, NC Dept of Agriculture, Heritage Park housing project), a historic neighborhood that won’t be redevlopable (Boylan Heights), or small, difficult to develop parcels (Bilyeu/Kirby, Lake Wheeler Road).

I hope the new facilities in Butner can handle the influx of patients, but I would trust the years of research that have gone into Dix’s closing more than this unwarranted land grab.

The Friends of Dix ( Boylan Heights residents) in their passion to have a Park close to Boylan Heights, have gone through some strong hand tactics to make it appear that their view is the only view on the table. Back, early in the public process to have the public come forward to express views as to what the Dorothea Dix property could be used for, strong support was shown for a World Class Botanical Garden … broad independent support was coming in from accross the Raleigh region and from around the State for a Botanical Garden. Then the back room deals started between the Dix Friends and the poloticians that live within the Boylan Heights neighborhood that are also on th Dix Study Commission. Suddenly, it appeared, the Botanical Garden proposal was being trashed and some-what ignored … even though there was a strong show of broad public support. I do not know of anyone who wants to see commercial or retail development placed on the Dix site. I do know of and have seen and heard from a large number of people who want the Dix site to be used for a World Class Botanical Garden. I only see a small politically charged group of people who want a park only that excludes other public venue uses. The Friends of Dix (Boylan Heights residents) have run off from their Group participation from any individual or group that did not buy into totally their park plan. The Friends of Dix have been skewing their information since 2005 and continue to think that it is not being watched and recorded. I thank the people with RaleighSkyline for monitoring their pole closely and calling the Friends of Dix on their fraudulent behavor. The true public discussion about the fate of the Dorothea Dix property has not been had as of yet. This is the first, so called public, independent pole or petition that has included the question about converting Dix into a Botanical Garden … and you added that question late in your pole. Keep working toward truthful resposes.

Amen to that Call me insane!!! Rest assured that you are not alone on this. The number of people who, given all the facts, would choose a mix of urban development and park/open space (1:2 ratio) is not what is advertised by the promoters of the park-or-nothing idea. The difference is that there is no organized effort to show the other side of the coin:

1) Parks don’t quite generate enough income to justify the suggested price tag of $40 million (plus all the money we’ll have to spend to actually create destinations and maintain them).
2) When Dorothea Dix donated all that space, that location was a pristine environment, almost like country side. This is what the mentally ill need. Not proximity to downtown.
3) The higher the sale price, the more money we can allocate to actually serve the mentally ill, assuming that the bureaucrats don’t waste it all. We MUST help the mentally ill, but without money there is no hope.
4) Many people do not seem to be concerned with the criminal elements that such parks attract. Keeping 300 acres safe would be far more difficult than we think. It will take continuous police presence to discourage criminals from finding shelter there. It happened with Central Park and many other parks around the country.
5) It is laughable to talk about “last chances” and “missed opportunities”, when we have Pullen Park, Umstead State Park and many others. Not to mention that it is virtually impossible to lose all that green that covers the entire city. We are not NYC. The latter was far denser when they built Central Park than Raleigh is now, or will ever be.
6) Converting 100 acres into a nice mix of urban development doesn’t mean that Dorothea Dix will lose all of its green, or its charm. As long as we make sure that NOTHING suburban goes there, we will be fine.
7) For a city that depends little on tourism, Raleigh doesn’t need to use 300+ acres to create destinations. 200+ acres should be enough.
The non-compromising attitudes of the all-park supporters is one of the things I truly dislike. Not to mention those lame renderings that show Dorothea Dix Campus appear like a huge warehouse district. Who are some people trying to fool? Nobody suggested we take the entire campus and turn it into a parking lot.
9) Ask yourselves this question: How many people in Raleigh suffer from allergies? Too many people, and being one of them, the last thing I want to see is my money going to something that makes me sick I LOVE trees, and I hate clear-cutting, but if we are honest we should focus on the mess that developers are creating every day. There is a lot more to save than 300 acres, or worse, 100 acres.

My suggestion: The state should sell the campus to the highest bidder with the condition that only 1/3 will be developed as a mixed-use community. Ensure that strict urban guidelines and attractive architecture will be used. Take the money and build state of the art facilities in an area that provides a decent environment for the mentally ill. Use part of that money to finance a shuttle bus that will bring visitors to and from the new location.

I know the opposition is strong and very vocal, but as a tax-payer I want the state government to consider the best solution. One that benefits the mentally ill, the tax-payers AND the city of Raleigh. That solution cannot possibly include a 300+ acres of park. 200 acres should be more than enough. Maybe I should start my own organization: Dix206.org

Concerned Botanical Garden,

I would not hesitate to support a world class botanical garden. Even though I wouldn’t visit more than once - because of my allergies - I know that there would be enough people to generate some momentum, and maybe some income. As long as we do not use the entire Dorothea Dix campus, I am fine with it.

How many acres would a world class botanical garden require? Unfortunately, I do not have the proper background to know, so feel free to share some information with us. Would there be any conflict/competition with Duke Gardens?

EDIT: Here is a link to the article:

“Hobbyists push for garden: Many groups covet soon-vacated land”

http://www.newsobserver.com/620/story/314874.html

Why would you target Dix306 supporters?

We have an extensive support group with 5,000 yard signs distributed throughout the greater Raleigh area and across the state.

Over 4,000 signatures on our internet petition plus a membership over 1,000 strong.

The citizens of NC want a destination park on the Dix property.

The citizens of NC want a Central Park for North Carolina.

The citizens of NC Don’t want the land used as an office park, condo’s and a strip mall.

The citizens of NC are speaking, are you ready to listen?

Nobody does, or should target Dix306.org. I am sure that many good people are involved in the latter. In fact, I would praise the work this group has done to raise so many great points and provide an alternative. However, all your “The citizens of NC…” points show precisely what people like me do not like. You have no way of knowing what the people truly want. Even if you had 100,000 signs all over the area you could not arrive to a safe conclusion about the majority of the citizens. The ground is all left to the all-park supporters because there is nobody out there who cares to show the opposite side, myself included.

Now if you are truly willing to listen to the citizens of NC, then be prepared for a big surprise. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of NC residents doesn’t even care. They are too far from Dorothea Dix and the problems that the real victims from this sale (the mentally ill) have to face. This is reality, whether we like it, or not. On the top of this, if anyone could actually create a report with the financial impact - both benefits and future costs - the people of NC would have had some sort of a balanced picture about what is at stake. Either we get a lot of money from this deal - we are discussing the development of ~100 acres, not an entire wipe out of the campus -, spend it on the mentally ill and encourage a responsible urban development, or we end up with a park that provides no real income to the city and serves very few people. If a developer spends $40 million to aquire the land, rest assured we will not see anything of extreme suburban nature, let alone a strip mall. Implying the latter is totally misleading.

If y’all continue to delay the process and waste eveyone’s time, be prepared for the worst case scenario: The state keeps some of the land and possibly builds an office park type of campus for some of its employees, while allocating less than 200 acres for open space and park. The all-park supporters have done a great service to the city by raising good points. I admire their work and dedication, but I will blame them if this deal goes bad. There has to be a point in time where we compromise. This is most likely what “the citizens of NC” would vote for, if they were given all the possible scenarios.

Personally, I vote for the ULI plan. The City of Raleigh came up with a good scenario, too, and I encourage people to look more into those two.

I personally think the City of Raleigh should give the land to me, so I can build my Fortress of Solitude there. That would be totally awesome.

That’s a ridiculous idea. So ridiculous, it might just work. But I don’t think 306 acres would be enough space for a Fortress of Solitude. 315 acres….that could work.

No way the entire Dorthea Dix should be a park. It should be some mixed-use. To think that it should only be used as a park is insane!

One of the ways the private group called Dix Friends have been able to gain some attention is to say they now want to preserve all the Dorothea Dix Hospital property as a diverse Park, giving the impression that they are in support of there being many public venues on the site, for all the citizens of the area, to to enjoy. In attempting to have them publicly define what any of those broad World Class public venues will be, they avoid the question by the fall back answer, that it is more important to only discuss preserving the entire property and not discuss individual uses. Then they, (Dix Friends), later in their explanations will discuss their plan as a broad open field, an ampitheater, frisbee throwing, dog walking, kite flying, soccer playing, bike riding, jogging and laying on blankets … is this their view of World Class. The Dix Friends have gone out of their way to publicly skew the plan proposed plan by the Wake County Botanical Garden people who have been working to publicly explain a Botanical Garden and to actually have a World Class Botanical Garden facility at the Dix site. WCBGS have been treated by the Dix Friends as if we are one of the aliens in this public discussion to preserve the entire 300 acre Dix property for the public. At one point the Dix Friends actually suggested that it would be nice to set aside eight acres for a display garden but failed to discuss that idea with the WCBGS representatives. The propblem with allowing the Dix Friends and their allies the 306 Group and the now Dix Visionaries to lead the public discussion, is their one sided view of what the citizens will have or need and how it will be governed and finaced. They, (Dix Friends), also have refussed to recognize the broad public benefit of a Botanical Garden and have steered their political connections toward thinking that all public concerns are being dealt with through them.
I repeat an earlier comment, the true public discussion has not even begun to take place concerning how to preserve and use the Dorothea Dix Hospital public land for the citizens of North Carolina. One private group and their splinter groups shoulf not be looked at as representatives of all the citizens of North Carolina, the true owners of the Dix land. The Botanical Garden proposal is on the table and needs to be known about and explored by the public and the publics true representatives for its benefical features and not ignored and wiped away through back room politics, one sided reporting and private group lobbying.
Thank you for including the Opinion Poll question concerning Converting Dix To a Botanical Garden. Your opinion poll is the first independent measured test of public opinion to date on what should be done with the Dix site. Even though the Botanical Garden question was added a week or more late in your opinion survey and only after being steered toward adding it, it allows a first measure of public opinion. Keep working to seek the truth.

The original poll was up for at least a month or more. The “develop some of it, preserve some of it” was leading for the entire life of the poll with over 60% of the vote. It’s a better representation of objectivity.

Not until I had that bit in the N&O did the Dix Park supporters catch wind of the poll and then things were heavily skewed from there. When I redid the new poll, I started everything from scratch- everything was at zero. But it’s been getting attention from the the different groups and the margin of error compared to the population of say, Wake County, is obviously huge.

EDIT: clean content

Lary you are a moron and should be baned from ever talking again, not to mention how would you know if there was a bot or not i hope you [edit] a slow [edit] just fo saying dumb things and never speak again cuz i will [edit] out your [edit]

100 years from now, no one will regret that we protected all 306 acres of this land. There are plenty of other places for mixed-use development.

Chris, I share your thought and believe it is true that 25, 150, 300 and more years from now everyone in Raleigh, either a resident or visitor and everyone in North Carolina will not have any regrets for saving all the remaining 300+ acres of the publicly owned Dorothea Dix Hospital property in downtown Raleigh. What we may regret, if not carefully scrutinized now is what we allow that property to be used for and how we structure the management and governence process. I for one and many others across Wake County and North Carolina would like the 300+ acres to be used for a full service truly World Class Botanical Garden that will serve the recreational, educational, inspirational needs of our current and future population. The planning, and execution of the plan needs to be people who have knowledge and experience with Botanical Gardens and the work they do and the service they provide. Our community does not need to be deprived any longer of the information and recreation opportunities that a truly great Botanical Garden can provide. I hope our community leaders and visionaries understand the need to preserve the Dix site and use it for a World Class Botanical Garden that will be developed over the life of our community and State. Join the work to bring a Botanical Garden to Dix.

100 years from now we will regret a lot of things, but with the money the state is seeking we can purchase more than 300 acres all over the area and preserve some green before some greedy developers make it disappear - assuming that the city actually buys the campus. The way Raleigh has been developed, and taking the landscape in consideration, we are not going to see the kind of opportunities for mixed-use developments that we need to see. No matter what happens, NOBODY will develop all of the 306 acres in the Dorothea Dix campus. Wasting time in arguing causes money-waste and huge delays, which don’t benefit anyone. In fact, we may see greedy developers destroying more than the 100 acres that we are actually discussing here. If y’all don’t compromise, rest assured that more damage will be done. This is not gambling to take risks. Either we unite and come up with a compromising vision - both ULI and the City of Raleigh have some nice plans - or the state will allow one of the worst redevelopment jobs to take place.

Now, if all the money goes to the mentally ill, then I will be happy for that. I think we should spend more energy in preventing the state from taking all the millions of dollars and wasting them than to prevent 100 acres from being developed. Just my opinion, of course.

[…] Other topics include include the aftermath of making front page of the News & Observer, the Dorthea Dix land use poll controversy, along with a few Raleigh Quickies. Back by popular demand, the “Hope you’re […]

When you choose the places you go on vacation, is it because the city has a large collection of MIXED-USE developments, or do you go because you want to experience the area’s heritage and beauty?

Does anyone ever say, “Let’s go to the mountains to see all the new Mixed-Use developments?”
Do you take the kids to the beach to show them the great Mixed-Use developments?
Do you go to Charleston, SC to see the mixed-use developments or to see the wonderful architecture and gardens?
Do you friefly enjoy the Azalea Festival in Wilmington then seek out the newest mixed-use development?
Do you go to Manteo and visit the Elizabethan Garden or to see how cleverly another mixed use development has been squeeze in?
I could go on and on, but my reasons for spending my tourist dollars is not about seeing shopping malls and office buildings.
Are you getting my point?
Public gardens are huge money makers–right up there with zoos, aquariums, museums, beaches and mountain scenery.

Dorothea Dix was a benefactor who knew the value of providing for her beloved state’s mentally ill, and her bequest should not be sub-divided, changed or altered in ways that would denegrate her generosity. She surely did not have a mixed-use development in mind when she gifted the state with her property on Dix Hill.

It’s beyond belief that a 300+ acre tract of land, bequeathed by a woman who meant it to be used for the well being of NC citizens, is now being bandied about as property to line the pockets of developers and further the careers of a few politicos who either don’t possess a conscience, or wish more to acquiesce to the special interests of developers than to honor the heritage they’ve been charged to delegate as a gift for the future of our children.

Leave the Dix property alone unless you mean to make it the best thing it can possibly be in perpetuity.
It’s purpose is clear. It’s a haven.

A haven is a place that benefits those who seek solace, peace and well-being. Studies have proven that natural surroundings have the power to heal both the mentally and physically ill. Hospital patients have a 50% better recovery rate when they can see a tree out of their window than ones who see only brick walls or parking lots.

A garden is also a haven. A healing place and a place of contemplation and joy — for people and wildlife.
Heritage is a precious thing, and Dix meant for her property to be used in a way that would provide a haven for all time.

A botanical garden (models of which are in all parts of the world — and places you’ve probably made it a point to visit on many occasions) would meet all the needs that Dorothea Dix trusted that her bequest would always serve.

Personally, I’ve never visited a city in my life where I was interested in seeing a mixed-use development. But, I’ve spent many, many, many of my hard earned dollars visiting public gardens wherever I travel.

It sure would be nice to have a world-class garden such as that right here in Raleigh — perhaps on Dix Hill — one that would rival all the public gardens in all the world. Or is that too much to ask of one of the most affluent and desired places to live in America?

Think globally for a change people. You can’t imagine the benefits that a world class botanical garden provides to a community in the long-term unless you think less about the next decade and start thinking about the next century and beyond.

The benefits of a great park, a wonderful botanical garden, or any major recreational area could not be debated, and I agree with you, jerry. What I cannot grasp is how the above can benefit the mentally ill, from a financial standpoint. Raleigh is not a touristy place, and since it lacks the historic fabric of Savannah and Charleston I don’t see any way of becoming a tourist attraction in the future. I never met anyone in my life that visited a city just for its botanical gardens and parks. If you want to create an attraction, then build a football stadium, or a NASCAR race track and you will see the financial benefits coming from tourism, fast.

Now, if anyone has the money to purchase Dorothea Dix Campus and pay for ALL future maintenance costs, then create a park, by all means. Otherwise, try to squeeze some world class in 200+ acres and you won’t hear me complaining. The mental health sector needs a ton of money, not gardens and parks. This is a reality that I wish we never had to deal with, but it is what it is. Besides, not many “world class” cities have recreation areas like Umstead State Park. We could invest some money there and make that park even greater, without even ruining its beauty.

screw the park. build a major league baseball stadium and cover the rest of the place with concrete and high rises. widen western blvd to 8 lanes and make this place start looking like a city. matter of fact, run an elevated train line or two through the park while were at it. even if theres no train service it will still look cool.

Ernest, and all the naysayers.

What I said about the fact that gardens and parks are places that people are naturally drawn to — and spend their money to visit — includes the millions of tourists that pass right through Raleigh every day on their way to the coast and back again. Those people will also spend their money at restaurants, hotels, and any other area attractions provided right here in Raleigh, but that fact seems to have flown right over your head.

I’m often given opportunities to take my out-of-state visitors to see the attractions in Raleigh. There are a few great ones, and there are a few not so impressive ones.

What I suggest is that Raleigh should think like a city that must — in the near future and for all time — create a place within spitting distance of it’s already fine Science Museum, History Museum and the downtown revitalization effort — that will attract MILLIONS & MILLIONS of visitors for the long term.

Give the opportunity, their tourist dollars will support local economy, including providing programs for mental health care and whatever the populace deems important to use tourist money for. It might sound outrageous to assume that a Have you ever heard of Longwood Gardens in Pennsylvania? Brookgreen Gardens in South Carolina? How about the world-class Missouri Botanical Gardens, or the gardens in Victoria, British Columbia? With the proper marketing, Raleigh could draw tourists from all over the world, just like those garden do.

And, with those tourist dollars, a plan by the city fathers/mothers that would compensate, designate and delegate a percentage of the massive monies collected from a world-class botanical garden would, forevermore, also benefit the metally ill. With massive the amounts of tourist dollars that are speeding past Raleigh on the way to other destinations in North Carolina we could (if the politicians make the right choice) spend the excess left in Raleigh on whatever the citizens choose — namely mental health care, and whatever ultimately (for all time) benefits the greater good of the Raleigh community.

At the same time, those tourists who visit the gardens on Dix Hill will be gaining so much solace and soaking up so much beauty, and enjoying such wonders that the garden provides that they will, in fact, be contributing to their own and their families’ mental health and well-being.

GARDENS ARE CURATIVE!!! They also generate income for the community that is intelligent enough to provide them as a major tourist attraction.

You don’t seem to get that creating a Botanial Garden WILL turn Raleigh into a tourist mecca, simply because of it’s curative powers. The beauty of creating that garden will not only cure the tourists, it will provide a windfall of tourist dollars that will keep on coming throughout the centuries to benefit the community.

Like I said before, stop thinking about the short term and really give the next century — and beyond — consideration.

There are public gardens all over the world, that were created in the 19th Century and are still benefitting their communities. Have you considered that in this, the 21st Century, we could make an impact in the 23rd Century by making the correct decision now?

Umstead is a find example of land conservation. It’s wonderful and right, in its way. But, you will never be able to attract the kind of tourism to Umstead that a world-class BOTANICAL DISPLAY GARDEN would.

The fact that Dix Hill is easy to access from I-40, I-440, I-95, I-85, Hwys 64 and 55 are golden. When I take out of town friends to Wilmington, they want to see the riverfront, experience the Battleship North Carolina, and we always stop for lunch, take a walk through the older part of town, and stay long enough to have supper before we come back to Raleigh. It’s all about economics. We spend $200 plus to take our guests to visit Wilimington.

Doesn’t Raleigh need that revenue? Saving the gas to Wilmington would mean we could afford an extra ticket to an event or garden in Raleigh. We all need to start thinking of Raleigh as a tourist mecca.

Ernest, you need to visit a couple of the gardens that The Wake County Botanical Garden has cited as examples — and actually experience all the millions of yearly visitors that trek to them — simply because they exist — before you base your decisions about whether or not Raleigh is a tourist destination.

By the way, Peter Raven, director of The Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis, Missouri gave a talk in 2004 at Raleigh’s own Museum of Science and Natural History, and he said, “This is the finest Science Museum in the Southeast.”

He also called it’ a hidden treasure to even the residents who drive past it on a daily basis.

Peter Raven has leant his support to Raleigh’s having a botanical garden to rival the one he directs in St. Louis, Mo.

How great is that?

Raven directs one of the finest Botanical Gardens in the world, and he wholeheartedly supports the idea that Raleigh should have one too.

It’s probably because he knows that there’s a great place on Dix Hill that would draw millions of tourists for the next few centuries to support horticultural research that he so reveres. It would become a place that will save lives with medical breakthroughs using that sciientific research that Raven knows is essential to the well-being of the planet and it will also become the type of garden that draws as many tourists as the garden he directs in St. Louis does on a yearly basis.

Tourists who visit a place of beauty, find that botanical gardens are not only pretty havens, but are doing research about plants that will cure cancer, and enable the human race (mental patients included) to thrive in the next million years.

If none of the above sways you to think about Raleigh having a Botanical Garden on Dix Hil. Stop and think about the economic impact, before you naysay the golden opportunity Raleigh has to turn Dix Hill into a cash cow, end of the rainbow, pot of gold place that will provide a jillion dollars for prosperity now and in the future.

Ernest,
Read again the part about gardens and nature being beneficial to the well-being of hospital patients. It’s proven that gardens/nature/natural surroundings are healing places.

Let’s not dicker and bicker about money here, or how a botanical garden would support itself. It will, and I guarantee it will.

If the politicians can see that the Dix property should rightfully become a world-class botanical garden — and I hope they ultimately get that fact — it’s a given, that in less than 20 years, it will pay for itself a thousand times. And, not just in the well-being of the average citizen who wants to walk among an inviting display of flowers after paying the average price of $16 for a ticket to enter the landscape of most botanical gardens.

A botanical garden is not just about flowers. It’s generally known that botanical gardens are about conservation, preservation, research and outreach to the community at large. Talking dollars, though, I know for a fact that tourist dollars, community support, jobs that will be created to support the garden, and volunteers that will surely come to help create and maintain a botanical garden will boggle your mind.

There will be no comparison to the measly bit of traffic that Umstead Park has seen since its inception. It’s just apples and oranges there. Trail walkers, hikers, bird wathchers, et al — they want what they want, and Umstead provides. On the other hand, tourists would like more of a wow factor while gaining their educations. They want pretty, functional and still able to wear sandals on the pathways while gaining knowledge about plants and animals.

For example, The Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis, MO has over 2 million visitors annually. Visitors pay up to $15 per visit. They eat in the cafe, buy souviners in the gift shop, and usually return again. Thankfully, the parking is free, and the surrounding neighborhood is not only hospitable to the influx of tourists, it’s residents have made an effort to provide great amenities such as local restaurants, hotels and easy access to other local attractions. Imagine $15 million exra dollars a year just because some silly people want some extra solace and enjoyment from a botanical garden that’s been around since 1800.

I don’t have any doubts that the noted botanical gardens around the world would worry if Raleigh decided to join the money train. What Raleigh has that no other city does is acreage that could become the premiere model of perfection in research and enhancement of horticulture and medical advancement of botanical curatives which (in other cities) have been drawing tourists from around the world for 2 centuries. Gardens that have proven to be tourist destinations since the 1800’s are not only supporting themselves, but also the communities surrounding them.

Think globally, for a change. Horticulture is the leading industry in NC. Gardening is the Number 1 hobby/pasttime of Americans. Gardens are not just about flowers. Horticultuere is really about the very survival of the human race — well-being, mental health and all those benefits that are derived from knowing and understanding nature and wildlife.

Add the fact that millions of tourists bypass Raleigh on the way to and from the Coast each year, and think about capturing them for a few days in Raleigh — to spend their money in hotels, restaurants and other museums and businesses.

All those passersby on I-40 might say to themselves, “Let’s stop see that great botanical garden in Raleigh.” Then they might stay a couple of extra days to see what else Raleigh offers.

It’s happening in a lot of other parts of the world. Why not here?

Jerry,

Allow me to have serious doubts about the surrounding neighborhoods supporting a more touristy nature for Dorothea Dix, if it becomes a botanical garden. Also, I doubt very seriously this idea will pay for itself. Feel free to share some examples of non-toursity places - St Louis is not exactly a non-tourist destination - which have botanical gardens that manage to break even. Please, do not misunderstand my opinion. I am 100% behind getting a world-class botanical garden and there is no need to convince me about the benefits. What I find hard to understand is why do some people insist that 200 acres are not enough. The 100 acres that could be developed would bring a lot of necessary funds for the mentally ill. Services for the latter have become VERY expensive lately and there is a lot of discussion about the lack of money needed to provide the best possible care. The situation is far worse than that. If someone can come up with $40 million, just for the purchase of the land, then it will be up to that person, or group of people, to decide what will go there. The state will have to sell to the highest bidder.

Again, no need to convince me about the benefits of a world class destination… I am 100% with you. I am simply not convinced that making Dorothea Dix a single-purpose destination is the best way to serve the mentally ill, at this point in time. To make a botanical garden a major success for Raleigh, I would first develop the surrounding areas to their fullest, making them urban, connecting them properly with the core of the city and finally putting a nice transportation system in place. Then, and only then, I would think about putting a world-class destination in Dorothea Dix. What I would like to see is 100 acres to the Eastern side being developed in a true urban manner, and leave the rest for later use - not to be developed, though. This is only my opinion, of course.

Hey Ernest,
Sorry about your allergies, but, hey, everybody has a cross to bear. I have serious allergies too, but whenever I have the oppportunity to visit a public garden, I never say no.

They are peaceful, calming and inspirational to say the least. They’re also places where frequent oppportunities arise to experience art shows, music festivals, and cultural events — including sampling international foods and meeting people from around the world.

“Think globally” is not just a catch phrase. Horticulture is a global pursuit, admired and enjoyed by people from every walk of life, economic background, race and age — and in world class botanical gardens, the enjoyment of horticulture usually culminates in huge parties to celebrate the seasons, the sunrise, sunset or high noon on any given day.

Those parties are unlike keggers and rock concerts, though. The crowds attracted to botanical gardens are reverent, orderly and filled with a love of nature and their surroundings.

Your concern about using the entire 300+ acres at Dix sounds like you have a need to placate special interests or perhaps you’re just a gentleman who wants to make everyone happy.

Except that, if a botanical garden is established there, our future generatiions will wish that we’d allocated 600+ acres. A garden of that magnitude might seem like overkill, but the benefits of preserving all 300 acres now provides the opportunity to continue developing them thoughtfully and slowly into a botanical garden that can expand over time. Whatever parcels are not used immediately remain available for future use as the garden grows and as the centuries progress.

Two or three hundred years from now, our great-grandchildren will be so grateful that way back in 2007, their ancestors had the forethought to give them the grand legacy of a public garden of such high stature and esteem that visitors from all parts of the world come here especially to visit The Dorothea Dix Botanical Gardens (just a thought about what I’d name it).

I agree with you that Raleigh needs to work on a better transportation system overall, but disagree that urban development on any part of the Dix land is necessary. The older buildings already there have historic value and should be kept and landscaped in ways that help them blend in with a botanical garden.

If, by any stretch of the imagination, should mental health care remain part of the Dix campus, it would be a blessing. And, there’s no reason why a botanical garden should interfer with that. But, given the fact that closing the hospital is pretty much a done deal, why not embrace the notion that a botanical garden could very well be the best use of the land for now and for the future.

One of the biggest challenges of leaving Dorothea Dix campus in its present state is the outdated facilities. As I said many times before, and I apologize for repeating it, every time I visit the campus to take photos of the skyline, I get depressed, myself. I don’t see how a mentally ill person can benefit from that environment. The former needs real state-of-the-art facilities, in an area that is separated from the bustle of the city. When Dorothea Dix donated the land for the mentally ill, the area was a suburb of Raleigh, separated from the center of activity. It should be clear that the facilities have outlived their usefulness these days. I would recommend ALL historic structures to remain in place and reused, assuming it is feasible, but the campus needs to move.

Jerry, let me put one of your concerns to rest. I am VERY genuine and VERY concerned about our city’s future. While you have a single-issue on your mind, and you do not seem to be wiling to compromise, I try to find the middle ground. Of course, this may be seen as a weakness, because I am not intrerested in forming groups and doing propaganda in favor of one solution over another. While some people find it easy to believe that the state government doesn’t care about preserving green areas, this is far from true and it shows in the way people react. The 100 acres that may be “sacrificed” could provide funds to save 1000+ acres in other key areas. That is more “thinking globally and acting locally” than what you propose. Besides, I am not sure most people realize that if those 100 acres could be developed in an urban fashion, more trees will be planted than the ones that exist now - I don’t count shrubs and bushes.

My interests are detached from anything that happens there. I admit, I am a state employee, but my well being doesn’t depend on Dorothea Dix’s future. I sure as Hell don’t serve any special interests. Besides, I am not the one who is working on promoting a single solution for Dorothea Dix Having a background in the law enforcement sector, I am also more than certain that any large park would pose HUGE problems when it comes to keeping criminal elements from finding shelter there. This would happen during a time when Raleigh PD is trying to ensure that the gang troubles that other areas face do not become problems for our city. Our resources are not enough, although someone may argue that today’s Dorothea Dix could easily become the playground for criminal activity. A botanical garden is a better proposition than a large park, in my opinion, but I would not give one single group the pleasure of having it their way only.

Let me take a guess about the future of Dorothea Dix: With so many groups promoting single-use solutions, I can see the state government saying “the Hell with all of you” and develop the entire thing in the most irresponsible way. Keep pushing for a park, or a botanical garden only, and you will be equally responsible for the mess that will be Dorothea Dix. Just want to alert you to this possibility. If the residents of Raleigh are not united and fully understand what is at stake, then we’ll regret the time we spent debating/arguing over 100 acres, pretty soon. The whole “all or nothing” mentality isn’t going to achieve anything. Only unity and some compromise can give us the best solution for the city.

Simply put, a Botanical Garden at the Dix property in Raleigh would be the all round best recreational, educational, tourist, fun feature that could ever be provided for the citizens of North Carolina. All the other proposal, housing, commercial office buildings or large park for the Friends of Dix are self centered and short sighted. We as all citizens need to enter the debate over the future use of the Dorothea Dix land that remains. We need to make sure the future for that incredible property is not squandered away through selfishness and neighborhood politics. The vision of a Botanical Garden comes not from just one group but a broad base of individuals that see learning and conserving the planet within the context of fun and all the natural beauty this planet has to offer is the greatest good for our citizens today, tomorrow and the future. Greatness should be the aim for the reuse of Dix.

I’m sorry you’re not swayed by my optimistic attitudes about turning the Dix Property into a garden that could benefit the entire Piedmont area and our future generations, Ernest. However, I’m not swayed at all by your lack of vision.

Provincial thinking is the bane of intelligent development all over the world.

It’s a shame that you cannot embrace the idea that the greater good might be served if the Dix property was preserved as a haven for troubled (mentally ill) people as well as masses of people who will/might be inspired to seek out the beauty and gain the reverence for nature that is so lacking in today’s world that a world-class garden could provide.

You label me as a person who sees only one solution — a botanical garden. I am, yet I’m not. I’m simply proposing that, at this point, nobody has shown me a better way to use to property.

What I do see is that, Raleigh is losing its charm. The reasons I wanted to live here are quickly being lost to interests that clearly have no compunctions about devastating it’s natural beauty or resources. For those of us who see the potential that a botanical garden would manifest for the area it’s a way to and seek out support as a last ditch effort to bring sanity into a realm that seems to have gone mad with greed.

I’m not a champion of a botanical garden so much as I’m worried that natural landscapes are being lost in the name of progress and the almightly dollar. Selling the Dix land is not a solution if it means that developers are given license to level it and turn it into strip malls and condos. Raleigh has to get a conscience and start thinking in terms of preserving the spaces that make it special. I’m so sick of driving around the area and seeing places that used to be pristine and beautiful turned into parking lots and high-rise developments. Aren’t you?

While my focus in our discussion has been about turning the Dix Property into a botanical garden, I’m not a diehard advocate for a botanical garden so much as I’m advocating the best use of land that was originally designated as a place where citizens of NC can find peace and solace. I challenge anyone to show me a mixed-use development that meets that criteria.

Why, now, do you decide to invoke your background in law enforcement and the fact that a park or garden would attract criminals? Sure, crime happens — Moore Park is a prime example of such doings. Laws are good, and laws help eliminate crime. But, what in heavens’ name are you saying here? Do parks and/or gardens naturally attract criminals?

If that’s your reason for continuing this discussion, let me assure you that, in my personal experience, gained through helping develop public gardens in ghettos and crime-ridden areas in some of the most down-trodden neighborhoods in the midwest, I’ve found that the simple act of educating the children that visited the parks I helped to create resulted in such a sense of pride and ownership for those children that they would have put themselves in peril before they would have allowed a single daisy in the flower beds they helped me build to succumb to vandalism.

You must stop thinking in terms of negatives and try to understand that the greater good comes only from dedication and devotion to education.

Education is the reason that botanical gardens serve the communities smart enough to make room for them. And the people who have developed botanical gardens in Chapel Hill, Raleigh, and Durham already know that it’s not about flowers and trees, it’s about preservation and conservation. The wildlife and the human race need havens. If you have problems with that, then you are not fully aware of the benefits or the possibilities.

My concern is simple. If the Dix property is turned into a mixed-use development, it shall be that and nothing more. It will never have the opportunity to become a haven for anyone again — sane or mentally ill. Therefore, it can never be the site Dix intended — that her bequest be used for the well-being of NC Citizens.

It’s not about what the property is now, it’s about what it could become. I’m merely a concerned citizen who thinks the property should serve the greater good. Interpreting Dix’s idea that it’s a haven for the mentally ill — a world-class botanical garden would fill that bill.

Naysaying and paranoia is not helping the issue. Putting forth your solutions is a good thing, but you have not explained fully what you see for the property that would also serve the community for the next 300 years.

I’m merely saying that a botanical garden would fill that need because the scope of influence in botanical gardens worldwide are proof positive already that they draw the community and the neighborhoods surrounding them together, and create, by their very existence, a welcoming, calming haven for the community and visitors from around the world.

Would you be happier about it if the property had a Sheetz gas station at the entrance? How about another McDonald’s or Bojangles? No reason not to include a Super MegaStore of some kind. No crime, no ambiance, no esthetics, no problem. Right?

Allow that to happen, and Raleigh ceases to be a special or desirable place to live. It’s just a waste of prime real estate. I hope at some point you and your ilk will realize the value of preservation. Havens should be preserved for the future, not sub-divided and sold off the the highest bidder.

Jerry,

You are starting and ending with the wrong foot. Who says I lack vision? Who guarantees that YOUR vision is the right one? Who says that Dix 306 doesn’t have the right vision? NOBODY does. As you recognize yourself, you only present one way of developing the campus, yet you close the door to ANY other possibility. I am supporting your idea for 200+ acres, but you shut the door to my vision for 100 acres. Now, how does that make you less selfish in the eyes of the other people? Just because you claim your idea benefits the future generations doesn’t mean that you have the answers to the growing population in Raleigh. “Me and my ilk” tend to be far more balanced when it comes to preserving the past and solving problems than those who take one side and stick with that.

Next, who said ANYTHING about strip malls? Where did you see that plan? Neither ULI, nor the City of Raleigh suggested such uses. Recycling the same old unsubstantiated rumors doesn’t make you right. Where do you see pristine environments turning into high-rise developments? I cover such projects in my web site and I am unaware of such proposals. All I see is golf courses taking up huge space, subdivisions for those who don’t want to deal with other people in the vicinity, ignorants who call a 5-story building a tower/high-rise, NIMBY’s who are scared of more people moving into their area, greedy developers who give us the worst they can possibly offer us, some city officials who approve crappy developments & strip malls, and the list can go on and on.

Then you go on to wonder about crime. Are you serious? Large parks are major magnets for criminal elements of ALL levels. This is one of the major problems that Central Park had, until the city spent lots of funds, time and effort to clean up most of it. I’ve seen things that you obviously cannot even begin to imagine, and that was many years ago, as a student in a NYC university - used to go to Central Park at least 2-3 times a week. These things don’t happen in botanical gardens, which is why I support your idea more than a huge park, but saying that parks don’t attract criminal elements is nowhere near the reality that others face every day. Parks normally do fine during the early stages and after they decline to the lowest point, but a city needs funds to keep such a large place safe 24/7.

Jerry, I know that you are a genuine person, who cares, and I am not going to change my opinion of you, regardless our continuous “fencing” in this forum. However, you insist on several points that I thought I made clear, so please let me summarize them and let’s not keep repeating them:

1) I am NOT against your idea. A botanical garden is perfectly fine with me. You don’t need to sell this idea to me.
2) Good urban guidelines is what I preach. As you correctly said, I have not presented a complete plan as to how Dorothea Dix needs to be used. That is, because I know one thing: EVERYONE has a good idea and needs to be heard. From the park fans, to the botanical garden supporters, to those who support mixed-use. I NEVER suggested the developments that you brought as bad examples, nor would I accept them. I HATE strip malls and all the garbage that follows. I will say more on this later.
3) Having it your way, is not necessarily the best way. Never liked single issue groups, and any non-compromising behavior is not acceptable to me, since I pay taxes, too. What I want is only for one part of the campus, NOT the entirety, and even then I suggest more green space within the 100 [mixed-use] acres.
4) I am not against the idea of having the mentally ill next to botanical gardens, but somehow I do not see tourists approaching within a mile. People have prejudice towards the mentally ill, mainly because of their fear of the unknown, not because they hate them.
5) The economic realities dictate, regardless of our desires, that the mentally ill will be moved. The state can get plenty of money for the land and use the funds towards better serving the mentally ill, in an environment that is more appropriate for the latter. I see no wrong here. It is not all about the money, but there are challenges we need to deal with and money solves many of them.

You sort of challenged me, and you are right. What do I suggest? First of all, ULI and the City of Raleigh have come up with some great plans that should please everyone. That is, everyone with vision and open mind. Since Pullen Park and Umstead Park provide a lot of room for activities, I would gladly suggest the use of 200+ acres for a botanical garden and some open space. For the other 100 acres, I would like to see a development that resembles the historic neighborhoods of Savannah, GA and Charleston, SC. These two cities have a wealth of great architecture and a very nice layout. The developed land should NOT be isolated. Several office buildings can be built along Lake Wheeler Rd, with some retail & restaurants on the ground floor. The residential component should increase as we move towards the West, offering great views towards the botanical gardens. While I would not encourage high-rise developments, I would not mind seeing a couple of buildings for the elderly, with some nice views of the city. I would limit condo buildings to 8-10 stories - residential floors are not as tall as people think - and encourage a larger number of single-family houses, be that townhomes, or detached homes. Beacon Hill, in Boston, offers some nice ideas:

http://photos.imageevent.com/ralf/massachusetts/bostonbeaconhill/large/PIC56963.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/35218000.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/41777337.jpg

I am not providing a complete picture, nor I can do so through my limited time. However, I will add this: Every nicely designed community, MUST have public spaces. Within the 100 acres, I would love to see at least 2-3 squares and plazas which may include the existing tall trees (great example of preservation):

http://www.pbase.com/jlpoliquin/image/60062958.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/jhoxworth/image/78984794.jpg

In those plazas, people can enjoy a mini botanical garden, statues by local artists, or even some art events and festivals. If planned right, this mixed-use community can offer amenities to visitors that choose to visit the botanical gardens. Some smaller museums can be integrated to supply additional destinations, especially along a couple of “main streets” that will connect Western Blvd and Lake Wheeler Rd with the gardens. Whatever historic buildings can be reused have to be saved and preserved.

Be honest Jerry: Where do you see fault in my idea? You want a botanical garden? You got it. You want preservation? You got it. You want destinations for tourists? You got them. Funds for the mentally ill? Without a doubt. No strip malls, no gas stations, no big-box retailers, lots of people that could visit the gardens frequently, and most of all, a great example of building a true community. I even include green areas inside the 100 acres of mixed-use. Is this the best idea? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I would LOVE to live in such a community and would consider moving there. I wouldn’t mind paying a symbolic annual tax towards the mentally ill, in memory of Dorothea Dix. I wouldn’t even mind paying a little extra for the maintenance of the botanical gardens. Feel free to throw the usual F.U.D. towards me if you want. Unless we find a middle ground, there is no hope this prime piece of land will ever be put to some good use. You don’t believe me? Wait and see.

If anyone is interested in seeing the public proposal that is before the Dorothea Dix Hospital Study Commission, Governor Easley and the Raleigh City Council for the World Class Botanical Garden proposed for the Dix site please e-mail and request a copy be sent to you. Within the proposal is a copy of the Dix Botanical Garden concept map. We appreciate all your positive comments about using the publiclly owned remaining Dorothea Dix Hospital property as a large full service public Botanical Garden. We hope we hear from you. wakecountybotanicalgardensociety@att.net . Make sure you let your political leaders know your wishes for Dix … the public debate is not over.

Some of you are confused as to how this land came into the hands of the citizens of North Carolina. Dorothea Dix did not bequeath it. The approval for creating and selecting the site was given in the legislature in December of 1848. Dorothea was a woman on a mission to ensure good health care for individuals with mental illness and she was also a good lobbyist. It was her relationship with Mrs. James C. Dobbin that encouraged James C. Dobbin to push through the defeated ‘Aslyum’ Bill. Dorothea Dix aided the governing committee in selecting the site, but the government purchased the land. Appropriations and bonds paid for the development.