You are starting and ending with the wrong foot. Who says I lack vision? Who guarantees that YOUR vision is the right one? Who says that Dix 306 doesn’t have the right vision? NOBODY does. As you recognize yourself, you only present one way of developing the campus, yet you close the door to ANY other possibility. I am supporting your idea for 200+ acres, but you shut the door to my vision for 100 acres. Now, how does that make you less selfish in the eyes of the other people? Just because you claim your idea benefits the future generations doesn’t mean that you have the answers to the growing population in Raleigh. “Me and my ilk” tend to be far more balanced when it comes to preserving the past and solving problems than those who take one side and stick with that.

Next, who said ANYTHING about strip malls? Where did you see that plan? Neither ULI, nor the City of Raleigh suggested such uses. Recycling the same old unsubstantiated rumors doesn’t make you right. Where do you see pristine environments turning into high-rise developments? I cover such projects in my web site and I am unaware of such proposals. All I see is golf courses taking up huge space, subdivisions for those who don’t want to deal with other people in the vicinity, ignorants who call a 5-story building a tower/high-rise, NIMBY’s who are scared of more people moving into their area, greedy developers who give us the worst they can possibly offer us, some city officials who approve crappy developments & strip malls, and the list can go on and on.

Then you go on to wonder about crime. Are you serious? Large parks are major magnets for criminal elements of ALL levels. This is one of the major problems that Central Park had, until the city spent lots of funds, time and effort to clean up most of it. I’ve seen things that you obviously cannot even begin to imagine, and that was many years ago, as a student in a NYC university - used to go to Central Park at least 2-3 times a week. These things don’t happen in botanical gardens, which is why I support your idea more than a huge park, but saying that parks don’t attract criminal elements is nowhere near the reality that others face every day. Parks normally do fine during the early stages and after they decline to the lowest point, but a city needs funds to keep such a large place safe 24/7.

Jerry, I know that you are a genuine person, who cares, and I am not going to change my opinion of you, regardless our continuous “fencing” in this forum. However, you insist on several points that I thought I made clear, so please let me summarize them and let’s not keep repeating them:

1) I am NOT against your idea. A botanical garden is perfectly fine with me. You don’t need to sell this idea to me.
2) Good urban guidelines is what I preach. As you correctly said, I have not presented a complete plan as to how Dorothea Dix needs to be used. That is, because I know one thing: EVERYONE has a good idea and needs to be heard. From the park fans, to the botanical garden supporters, to those who support mixed-use. I NEVER suggested the developments that you brought as bad examples, nor would I accept them. I HATE strip malls and all the garbage that follows. I will say more on this later.
3) Having it your way, is not necessarily the best way. Never liked single issue groups, and any non-compromising behavior is not acceptable to me, since I pay taxes, too. What I want is only for one part of the campus, NOT the entirety, and even then I suggest more green space within the 100 [mixed-use] acres.
4) I am not against the idea of having the mentally ill next to botanical gardens, but somehow I do not see tourists approaching within a mile. People have prejudice towards the mentally ill, mainly because of their fear of the unknown, not because they hate them.
5) The economic realities dictate, regardless of our desires, that the mentally ill will be moved. The state can get plenty of money for the land and use the funds towards better serving the mentally ill, in an environment that is more appropriate for the latter. I see no wrong here. It is not all about the money, but there are challenges we need to deal with and money solves many of them.

You sort of challenged me, and you are right. What do I suggest? First of all, ULI and the City of Raleigh have come up with some great plans that should please everyone. That is, everyone with vision and open mind. Since Pullen Park and Umstead Park provide a lot of room for activities, I would gladly suggest the use of 200+ acres for a botanical garden and some open space. For the other 100 acres, I would like to see a development that resembles the historic neighborhoods of Savannah, GA and Charleston, SC. These two cities have a wealth of great architecture and a very nice layout. The developed land should NOT be isolated. Several office buildings can be built along Lake Wheeler Rd, with some retail & restaurants on the ground floor. The residential component should increase as we move towards the West, offering great views towards the botanical gardens. While I would not encourage high-rise developments, I would not mind seeing a couple of buildings for the elderly, with some nice views of the city. I would limit condo buildings to 8-10 stories - residential floors are not as tall as people think - and encourage a larger number of single-family houses, be that townhomes, or detached homes. Beacon Hill, in Boston, offers some nice ideas:

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I am not providing a complete picture, nor I can do so through my limited time. However, I will add this: Every nicely designed community, MUST have public spaces. Within the 100 acres, I would love to see at least 2-3 squares and plazas which may include the existing tall trees (great example of preservation):

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In those plazas, people can enjoy a mini botanical garden, statues by local artists, or even some art events and festivals. If planned right, this mixed-use community can offer amenities to visitors that choose to visit the botanical gardens. Some smaller museums can be integrated to supply additional destinations, especially along a couple of “main streets” that will connect Western Blvd and Lake Wheeler Rd with the gardens. Whatever historic buildings can be reused have to be saved and preserved.

Be honest Jerry: Where do you see fault in my idea? You want a botanical garden? You got it. You want preservation? You got it. You want destinations for tourists? You got them. Funds for the mentally ill? Without a doubt. No strip malls, no gas stations, no big-box retailers, lots of people that could visit the gardens frequently, and most of all, a great example of building a true community. I even include green areas inside the 100 acres of mixed-use. Is this the best idea? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I would LOVE to live in such a community and would consider moving there. I wouldn’t mind paying a symbolic annual tax towards the mentally ill, in memory of Dorothea Dix. I wouldn’t even mind paying a little extra for the maintenance of the botanical gardens. Feel free to throw the usual F.U.D. towards me if you want. Unless we find a middle ground, there is no hope this prime piece of land will ever be put to some good use. You don’t believe me? Wait and see.

Provincial thinking is the bane of intelligent development all over the world.

It’s a shame that you cannot embrace the idea that the greater good might be served if the Dix property was preserved as a haven for troubled (mentally ill) people as well as masses of people who will/might be inspired to seek out the beauty and gain the reverence for nature that is so lacking in today’s world that a world-class garden could provide.

You label me as a person who sees only one solution — a botanical garden. I am, yet I’m not. I’m simply proposing that, at this point, nobody has shown me a better way to use to property.

What I do see is that, Raleigh is losing its charm. The reasons I wanted to live here are quickly being lost to interests that clearly have no compunctions about devastating it’s natural beauty or resources. For those of us who see the potential that a botanical garden would manifest for the area it’s a way to and seek out support as a last ditch effort to bring sanity into a realm that seems to have gone mad with greed.

I’m not a champion of a botanical garden so much as I’m worried that natural landscapes are being lost in the name of progress and the almightly dollar. Selling the Dix land is not a solution if it means that developers are given license to level it and turn it into strip malls and condos. Raleigh has to get a conscience and start thinking in terms of preserving the spaces that make it special. I’m so sick of driving around the area and seeing places that used to be pristine and beautiful turned into parking lots and high-rise developments. Aren’t you?

While my focus in our discussion has been about turning the Dix Property into a botanical garden, I’m not a diehard advocate for a botanical garden so much as I’m advocating the best use of land that was originally designated as a place where citizens of NC can find peace and solace. I challenge anyone to show me a mixed-use development that meets that criteria.

Why, now, do you decide to invoke your background in law enforcement and the fact that a park or garden would attract criminals? Sure, crime happens — Moore Park is a prime example of such doings. Laws are good, and laws help eliminate crime. But, what in heavens’ name are you saying here? Do parks and/or gardens naturally attract criminals?

If that’s your reason for continuing this discussion, let me assure you that, in my personal experience, gained through helping develop public gardens in ghettos and crime-ridden areas in some of the most down-trodden neighborhoods in the midwest, I’ve found that the simple act of educating the children that visited the parks I helped to create resulted in such a sense of pride and ownership for those children that they would have put themselves in peril before they would have allowed a single daisy in the flower beds they helped me build to succumb to vandalism.

You must stop thinking in terms of negatives and try to understand that the greater good comes only from dedication and devotion to education.

Education is the reason that botanical gardens serve the communities smart enough to make room for them. And the people who have developed botanical gardens in Chapel Hill, Raleigh, and Durham already know that it’s not about flowers and trees, it’s about preservation and conservation. The wildlife and the human race need havens. If you have problems with that, then you are not fully aware of the benefits or the possibilities.

My concern is simple. If the Dix property is turned into a mixed-use development, it shall be that and nothing more. It will never have the opportunity to become a haven for anyone again — sane or mentally ill. Therefore, it can never be the site Dix intended — that her bequest be used for the well-being of NC Citizens.

It’s not about what the property is now, it’s about what it could become. I’m merely a concerned citizen who thinks the property should serve the greater good. Interpreting Dix’s idea that it’s a haven for the mentally ill — a world-class botanical garden would fill that bill.

Naysaying and paranoia is not helping the issue. Putting forth your solutions is a good thing, but you have not explained fully what you see for the property that would also serve the community for the next 300 years.

I’m merely saying that a botanical garden would fill that need because the scope of influence in botanical gardens worldwide are proof positive already that they draw the community and the neighborhoods surrounding them together, and create, by their very existence, a welcoming, calming haven for the community and visitors from around the world.

Would you be happier about it if the property had a Sheetz gas station at the entrance? How about another McDonald’s or Bojangles? No reason not to include a Super MegaStore of some kind. No crime, no ambiance, no esthetics, no problem. Right?

Allow that to happen, and Raleigh ceases to be a special or desirable place to live. It’s just a waste of prime real estate. I hope at some point you and your ilk will realize the value of preservation. Havens should be preserved for the future, not sub-divided and sold off the the highest bidder.

Jerry, let me put one of your concerns to rest. I am VERY genuine and VERY concerned about our city’s future. While you have a single-issue on your mind, and you do not seem to be wiling to compromise, I try to find the middle ground. Of course, this may be seen as a weakness, because I am not intrerested in forming groups and doing propaganda in favor of one solution over another. While some people find it easy to believe that the state government doesn’t care about preserving green areas, this is far from true and it shows in the way people react. The 100 acres that may be “sacrificed” could provide funds to save 1000+ acres in other key areas. That is more “thinking globally and acting locally” than what you propose. Besides, I am not sure most people realize that if those 100 acres could be developed in an urban fashion, more trees will be planted than the ones that exist now - I don’t count shrubs and bushes.

My interests are detached from anything that happens there. I admit, I am a state employee, but my well being doesn’t depend on Dorothea Dix’s future. I sure as Hell don’t serve any special interests. Besides, I am not the one who is working on promoting a single solution for Dorothea Dix Having a background in the law enforcement sector, I am also more than certain that any large park would pose HUGE problems when it comes to keeping criminal elements from finding shelter there. This would happen during a time when Raleigh PD is trying to ensure that the gang troubles that other areas face do not become problems for our city. Our resources are not enough, although someone may argue that today’s Dorothea Dix could easily become the playground for criminal activity. A botanical garden is a better proposition than a large park, in my opinion, but I would not give one single group the pleasure of having it their way only.

Let me take a guess about the future of Dorothea Dix: With so many groups promoting single-use solutions, I can see the state government saying “the Hell with all of you” and develop the entire thing in the most irresponsible way. Keep pushing for a park, or a botanical garden only, and you will be equally responsible for the mess that will be Dorothea Dix. Just want to alert you to this possibility. If the residents of Raleigh are not united and fully understand what is at stake, then we’ll regret the time we spent debating/arguing over 100 acres, pretty soon. The whole “all or nothing” mentality isn’t going to achieve anything. Only unity and some compromise can give us the best solution for the city.

They are peaceful, calming and inspirational to say the least. They’re also places where frequent oppportunities arise to experience art shows, music festivals, and cultural events — including sampling international foods and meeting people from around the world.

“Think globally” is not just a catch phrase. Horticulture is a global pursuit, admired and enjoyed by people from every walk of life, economic background, race and age — and in world class botanical gardens, the enjoyment of horticulture usually culminates in huge parties to celebrate the seasons, the sunrise, sunset or high noon on any given day.

Those parties are unlike keggers and rock concerts, though. The crowds attracted to botanical gardens are reverent, orderly and filled with a love of nature and their surroundings.

Your concern about using the entire 300+ acres at Dix sounds like you have a need to placate special interests or perhaps you’re just a gentleman who wants to make everyone happy.

Except that, if a botanical garden is established there, our future generatiions will wish that we’d allocated 600+ acres. A garden of that magnitude might seem like overkill, but the benefits of preserving all 300 acres now provides the opportunity to continue developing them thoughtfully and slowly into a botanical garden that can expand over time. Whatever parcels are not used immediately remain available for future use as the garden grows and as the centuries progress.

Two or three hundred years from now, our great-grandchildren will be so grateful that way back in 2007, their ancestors had the forethought to give them the grand legacy of a public garden of such high stature and esteem that visitors from all parts of the world come here especially to visit The Dorothea Dix Botanical Gardens (just a thought about what I’d name it).

I agree with you that Raleigh needs to work on a better transportation system overall, but disagree that urban development on any part of the Dix land is necessary. The older buildings already there have historic value and should be kept and landscaped in ways that help them blend in with a botanical garden.

If, by any stretch of the imagination, should mental health care remain part of the Dix campus, it would be a blessing. And, there’s no reason why a botanical garden should interfer with that. But, given the fact that closing the hospital is pretty much a done deal, why not embrace the notion that a botanical garden could very well be the best use of the land for now and for the future.

Allow me to have serious doubts about the surrounding neighborhoods supporting a more touristy nature for Dorothea Dix, if it becomes a botanical garden. Also, I doubt very seriously this idea will pay for itself. Feel free to share some examples of non-toursity places - St Louis is not exactly a non-tourist destination - which have botanical gardens that manage to break even. Please, do not misunderstand my opinion. I am 100% behind getting a world-class botanical garden and there is no need to convince me about the benefits. What I find hard to understand is why do some people insist that 200 acres are not enough. The 100 acres that could be developed would bring a lot of necessary funds for the mentally ill. Services for the latter have become VERY expensive lately and there is a lot of discussion about the lack of money needed to provide the best possible care. The situation is far worse than that. If someone can come up with $40 million, just for the purchase of the land, then it will be up to that person, or group of people, to decide what will go there. The state will have to sell to the highest bidder.

Again, no need to convince me about the benefits of a world class destination… I am 100% with you. I am simply not convinced that making Dorothea Dix a single-purpose destination is the best way to serve the mentally ill, at this point in time. To make a botanical garden a major success for Raleigh, I would first develop the surrounding areas to their fullest, making them urban, connecting them properly with the core of the city and finally putting a nice transportation system in place. Then, and only then, I would think about putting a world-class destination in Dorothea Dix. What I would like to see is 100 acres to the Eastern side being developed in a true urban manner, and leave the rest for later use - not to be developed, though. This is only my opinion, of course.

Let’s not dicker and bicker about money here, or how a botanical garden would support itself. It will, and I guarantee it will.

If the politicians can see that the Dix property should rightfully become a world-class botanical garden — and I hope they ultimately get that fact — it’s a given, that in less than 20 years, it will pay for itself a thousand times. And, not just in the well-being of the average citizen who wants to walk among an inviting display of flowers after paying the average price of $16 for a ticket to enter the landscape of most botanical gardens.

A botanical garden is not just about flowers. It’s generally known that botanical gardens are about conservation, preservation, research and outreach to the community at large. Talking dollars, though, I know for a fact that tourist dollars, community support, jobs that will be created to support the garden, and volunteers that will surely come to help create and maintain a botanical garden will boggle your mind.

There will be no comparison to the measly bit of traffic that Umstead Park has seen since its inception. It’s just apples and oranges there. Trail walkers, hikers, bird wathchers, et al — they want what they want, and Umstead provides. On the other hand, tourists would like more of a wow factor while gaining their educations. They want pretty, functional and still able to wear sandals on the pathways while gaining knowledge about plants and animals.

For example, The Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis, MO has over 2 million visitors annually. Visitors pay up to $15 per visit. They eat in the cafe, buy souviners in the gift shop, and usually return again. Thankfully, the parking is free, and the surrounding neighborhood is not only hospitable to the influx of tourists, it’s residents have made an effort to provide great amenities such as local restaurants, hotels and easy access to other local attractions. Imagine $15 million exra dollars a year just because some silly people want some extra solace and enjoyment from a botanical garden that’s been around since 1800.

I don’t have any doubts that the noted botanical gardens around the world would worry if Raleigh decided to join the money train. What Raleigh has that no other city does is acreage that could become the premiere model of perfection in research and enhancement of horticulture and medical advancement of botanical curatives which (in other cities) have been drawing tourists from around the world for 2 centuries. Gardens that have proven to be tourist destinations since the 1800’s are not only supporting themselves, but also the communities surrounding them.

Think globally, for a change. Horticulture is the leading industry in NC. Gardening is the Number 1 hobby/pasttime of Americans. Gardens are not just about flowers. Horticultuere is really about the very survival of the human race — well-being, mental health and all those benefits that are derived from knowing and understanding nature and wildlife.

Add the fact that millions of tourists bypass Raleigh on the way to and from the Coast each year, and think about capturing them for a few days in Raleigh — to spend their money in hotels, restaurants and other museums and businesses.

All those passersby on I-40 might say to themselves, “Let’s stop see that great botanical garden in Raleigh.” Then they might stay a couple of extra days to see what else Raleigh offers.

It’s happening in a lot of other parts of the world. Why not here?

What I said about the fact that gardens and parks are places that people are naturally drawn to — and spend their money to visit — includes the millions of tourists that pass right through Raleigh every day on their way to the coast and back again. Those people will also spend their money at restaurants, hotels, and any other area attractions provided right here in Raleigh, but that fact seems to have flown right over your head.

I’m often given opportunities to take my out-of-state visitors to see the attractions in Raleigh. There are a few great ones, and there are a few not so impressive ones.

What I suggest is that Raleigh should think like a city that must — in the near future and for all time — create a place within spitting distance of it’s already fine Science Museum, History Museum and the downtown revitalization effort — that will attract MILLIONS & MILLIONS of visitors for the long term.

Give the opportunity, their tourist dollars will support local economy, including providing programs for mental health care and whatever the populace deems important to use tourist money for. It might sound outrageous to assume that a Have you ever heard of Longwood Gardens in Pennsylvania? Brookgreen Gardens in South Carolina? How about the world-class Missouri Botanical Gardens, or the gardens in Victoria, British Columbia? With the proper marketing, Raleigh could draw tourists from all over the world, just like those garden do.

And, with those tourist dollars, a plan by the city fathers/mothers that would compensate, designate and delegate a percentage of the massive monies collected from a world-class botanical garden would, forevermore, also benefit the metally ill. With massive the amounts of tourist dollars that are speeding past Raleigh on the way to other destinations in North Carolina we could (if the politicians make the right choice) spend the excess left in Raleigh on whatever the citizens choose — namely mental health care, and whatever ultimately (for all time) benefits the greater good of the Raleigh community.

At the same time, those tourists who visit the gardens on Dix Hill will be gaining so much solace and soaking up so much beauty, and enjoying such wonders that the garden provides that they will, in fact, be contributing to their own and their families’ mental health and well-being.

GARDENS ARE CURATIVE!!! They also generate income for the community that is intelligent enough to provide them as a major tourist attraction.

You don’t seem to get that creating a Botanial Garden WILL turn Raleigh into a tourist mecca, simply because of it’s curative powers. The beauty of creating that garden will not only cure the tourists, it will provide a windfall of tourist dollars that will keep on coming throughout the centuries to benefit the community.

Like I said before, stop thinking about the short term and really give the next century — and beyond — consideration.

There are public gardens all over the world, that were created in the 19th Century and are still benefitting their communities. Have you considered that in this, the 21st Century, we could make an impact in the 23rd Century by making the correct decision now?

Umstead is a find example of land conservation. It’s wonderful and right, in its way. But, you will never be able to attract the kind of tourism to Umstead that a world-class BOTANICAL DISPLAY GARDEN would.

The fact that Dix Hill is easy to access from I-40, I-440, I-95, I-85, Hwys 64 and 55 are golden. When I take out of town friends to Wilmington, they want to see the riverfront, experience the Battleship North Carolina, and we always stop for lunch, take a walk through the older part of town, and stay long enough to have supper before we come back to Raleigh. It’s all about economics. We spend $200 plus to take our guests to visit Wilimington.

Doesn’t Raleigh need that revenue? Saving the gas to Wilmington would mean we could afford an extra ticket to an event or garden in Raleigh. We all need to start thinking of Raleigh as a tourist mecca.

Ernest, you need to visit a couple of the gardens that The Wake County Botanical Garden has cited as examples — and actually experience all the millions of yearly visitors that trek to them — simply because they exist — before you base your decisions about whether or not Raleigh is a tourist destination.

By the way, Peter Raven, director of The Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis, Missouri gave a talk in 2004 at Raleigh’s own Museum of Science and Natural History, and he said, “This is the finest Science Museum in the Southeast.”

He also called it’ a hidden treasure to even the residents who drive past it on a daily basis.

Peter Raven has leant his support to Raleigh’s having a botanical garden to rival the one he directs in St. Louis, Mo.

How great is that?

Raven directs one of the finest Botanical Gardens in the world, and he wholeheartedly supports the idea that Raleigh should have one too.

It’s probably because he knows that there’s a great place on Dix Hill that would draw millions of tourists for the next few centuries to support horticultural research that he so reveres. It would become a place that will save lives with medical breakthroughs using that sciientific research that Raven knows is essential to the well-being of the planet and it will also become the type of garden that draws as many tourists as the garden he directs in St. Louis does on a yearly basis.

Tourists who visit a place of beauty, find that botanical gardens are not only pretty havens, but are doing research about plants that will cure cancer, and enable the human race (mental patients included) to thrive in the next million years.

If none of the above sways you to think about Raleigh having a Botanical Garden on Dix Hil. Stop and think about the economic impact, before you naysay the golden opportunity Raleigh has to turn Dix Hill into a cash cow, end of the rainbow, pot of gold place that will provide a jillion dollars for prosperity now and in the future.