Who lives in Clayton/Johnston County? Would you take this to work? What would you need for it to be more convenient than your car?

The big question for me is this: Can we afford such a system? Most of the opposition to the previous regional rail plan came from the price tag and the ways we looked into financing it – we asked the Feds for 61% of the cost, which is insane. The newer version of TTA’s transit plan seems to have received supporters even from the opposition camp, many of whom were concerned about the lack of good connection with RDU. I think that looking into this new vision as a long-term project is a healthy approach. As long as we bring a few decent developers on board, we may see some needed density in key areas of the future line. I am not sure that “build it and they will come” is going to work this time. First, we have to get some density, and then we can bring the rail.

Thoughts?

In addition, “manhattanization” is fought tooth-and-nail here, from SF to Oakland to San Jose and everywhere in between. Good views = big money, and property owners will fight like hell to protect them. Here in SF, for example, we have voter-initiative-approved measures that LIMIT how high our buildings can go in various neighborhoods, including FiDi, and the great majority of us like it that way. As someone posted above, a great DT is really more about density, diversity and transportation options that about building height (simply look toward Europe). The proposed Transbay Tower in SF is still facing a hurdle of lawsuits, so I wouldn’t expect much there to happen for a while except the transportation terminal portion of the project…

Raleigh also needs some sort of signature thing that people might want to come and see like the St.Luis arch.

The creation of a shopping district in downtown. A place where all sorts of retail, from small, local places, to big chains, can open stores, WITHOUT creating parking lots (decks, especially underground, are the goal). Perhaps Salisbury Street.

Second, encourage SECOND FLOOR retail, as well as third and fourth floor. In many cities, there are big stores like Macy’s that take up 3-4 floors inside a larger building.

Encouraging retail requires attracting residents and attracting residents requires, among other things, having retail.

J asks a very important question that MUST be answered. First, we would need to ask: “What CAN we do?” I have little doubt that even if we disagree on some issues, we can all (or at least most of us) agree that we need to work on the following:

* Skyline – Do not put idiotic height and density limitations.
* Urbanity/density – No more Blount Street Commons type of garbage; state officials also share responsibility. Think big and dense, especially where land is available in abundance. Urbanity for the entire city, not just downtown.
* Amenities – Encourage both organic businesses and chains to operate.
* Transportation – Light rail, buses, bike lanes, etc.

This is a small list of how we can accomplish the above:

* Corporate relocations.
* Fiscal responsibility.
* Good promotional efforts (to residents and visitors, alike).
* Creation of a business-friendly environment.
* Treat the city as a whole; connect downtown with the rest of the city (create a bond).

Currently, all I can see feasible is to emphasize the main points to the city leaders – emailing works just fine. Let them know that we are not pleased with the current direction, but also thank them for the good things they have done. Second, we can support candidates that address the issues we care about the most. Third, spread the word around, to other residents, about the benefits of addressing the issues we currently discuss.

Please, add your ideas

Raleigh city leaders dropped the ball on putting the RBC center out in farmland (this is how we lost the CIAA), and they are about to drop the ball on developing the Dorthea Dix land into a park. It drives me nuts. Raleigh succeeds INSPITE of it’s city leaders.

Point is, we shouldn’t enter into such a decision lightly, since any MLB team would want a publically-financed stadium which would cost upwards of $400 million and probably more like $600 million (the new stadium in Minneapolis costs $545 million, the new Yankee Stadium, being over the top and in New York cost $1.5 billion).

And Ernest, my only point about Charlotte is that the only difference between the three Triangle cities and Charlotte is that Charlotte covers an area the size of Cary, Durham and Raleigh and in the Triangle, those three cities are nearly contiguous, hypothetically-speaking, they could merge (like New York, Queens and Brooklyn did to form New York City at the beginning of the 20th century). Though, I don’t think there’s much chance of that happening.

As far as Raleigh’s skyline, I dont think its bigger/better than Richmond’s. The RBC building might be taller than any building in Richmond. But I would love to have the density Richmond has. Especially for a city roughly half the size (I know they had a 40year head start). I travel to DC/MD frequently and the best scenic image (other than the unmarked police clocking cars lol) of the trip is seeing downtown Richmond on I-95. IMHO Raleigh should look like Richmond now, but I think Raleigh’s past (and present) leadership missed that opportunity in the mid 90s when this city first started to gain recognition. And unfortunately this same small minded thinking plagues this city.

Raleigh is very unique and has similar amenities that other major cities have. And is a great place to live. But what makes Raleigh so unique is also a curse for Downtown. If it wasnt for RTP than a lot more companies would be looking at downtown for relocation. And the completion of 540 and 264 will more liking encourage sprawl than DT development. Its great for the Raleigh as a whole and the suburbs but bad for DT and its skyline.

As for sports, I truly think that Raleigh could easily support Major League Baseball. I figure this would probably pull some from the Bulls attendance figures which would kind of be sad. Raleigh is bigger than some cities that already have MLB. Raleigh has surpassed St. Louis, Pittsburg and etc. I could easily see thousands upon thousands of people going to games here in Raleigh. Raleigh could easily help fill the stadium from not only our MSA, but the Triad and probably, East and towards the North. I am sure that many people would come and stay in the city for the weekend when games are in town. I truly think that MLB in Raleigh would be a homerun (no pun intended)!

Yes, Raleigh’s skyline is lacking. However, we do have quite a bigger skyline than most Southeast cities (i.e. Richmond, Norfolk, Greensboro, Columbia, SC, Orlando, etc). Think about it…what is the biggest skyline between the coast and here? Raleigh. What is the biggest skyline from Greensboro to here? Raleigh. The biggest skylineNorth from say here to DC or Baltimore? Raleigh. I really hope that a 60 story building gets built in downtown in the future. I really do not think any big skyscrapers need to be built outside of downtown and around Crabtree.

And though we might not have 70 story buildings fulfilling the sky in downtown, as Matt has shown us through his photos, we live in an absolutely beautiful part of the country. Why do you think thousands upon thousands move to Wake County and the Triangle EVERY year? This area is great. And what makes Raleigh unique and distinguishes it from other cities such as Charlotte is that Raleigh is close to other unique and cool areas such as Durham and Chapel Hill. We also have Research Triangle Park. We have almost every single amenity that a top 10 large metro area boosts…we have some of the best beaches in the U.S. and it is only a short two hour trip on I-40 from Raleigh. Yes, traffic is worse is in Raleigh than Charlotte, but yet it is not like Atlanta and one can easily get around. I have to say that the NC DOT has done a good job completing I-540 and I-440, 264 etc. to keep up with all of our growth! But perhaps the best thing about Raleigh is its people. And that my friend, is why I love and call this “home”.

I wander whether the new amphitheater will bring more restaurants to downtown. It will finally fill that empty block and expand things to do more west.

Also, according Wikipedia, Raleigh’s population density is 2960 people per square mile. Charlotte’s is only 2516/mile.
Raleigh’s land area is 144 square miles. Charlotte’s is 286. That is twice as big. I did the math and if Raleigh were as big land wise, its population would be 846,560 which is bigger than Charlotte’s population which is around 690,000.

laryea, maybe if we spread the word about raleighskyline.com, out-of-towners may be fooled into believing that we are a great city Until they get here, of course…

Like I said, Charlotte only has a larger population than Raleigh because Charlotte incorporates more land, like I previously wrote, Charlotte’s about the same land area as Cary, Durham and Raleigh combined, and those three cities combined have about 100,000 more than Charlotte. Charlotte, like all sunbelt cities, is a sprawling mass, but the Charlotte CSA is about 600,000 more than the Triangle.

That being said, as I previously posted, San Francisco has had the largest building in California and it’s about 700,000 or so, while LA is nearly 4 million, so there’s no reason Raleigh can’t have the largest tower, it won’t be anytime soon, but, since I’m young I tend to think in long term time frames, so 40 years in the future I’ll only be 60. Most of what I talk about is on a 50 ish year time frame.

Ben(15), amen to that brother!!! Glenwood South “deserves” a bunch of high-rises. Quorum Center and West At North are a good start, but we’ll need more… A lot more.

*unequal, 100,000 larger than Charlotte.

That being said, there’s no reason why Raleigh can’t have the tallest building, San Francisco and Los Angeles have both had that distinction in California during the last 40 years (though the US Bank Tower is much taller than anything in SF, though if the Transbay Terminal towers are completed they would be over 100 ft taller and bring the title back to SF). As Laryea said, a tower the size of BoA or bigger in Raleigh would initially look a little funny, but I would hope the city would push for other 600-700 ft or taller buildings, as well as a host of 500 ft or so.

Any of these in the next 40 years or less

Also, a comment on what Steve said, if the RBC Center were moved downtown, there would be no way to tailgate. I love tailgating before going to a Canes games and that aspect would be ruined.

Anyway, I would settle for an arena as near to downtown as possible. If the spectators can easily stop in DT Raleigh and have some fun (see: spend some money), I will be ecstatic. I don’t care what sports this arena would host, as long as they are attended well and benefit downtown. In my previous email, I mentioned sports complex, which means it can be an arena and a field (soccer, football, etc.).

For the next 10 years I want to see a boost in the skyline. If that is too general, I want to see at least 3 corporate relocations with an average of at least 2000 new employees, which will also create the need for more office space and high-rises. For the next 40 years, I want to see an ultra-urban downtown, with big city amenities, population of over 25000 people and a dense & tall skyline, with at least 4-5 buildings over 600ft – the more and taller, the better

As far as sports complexes, I’m not in favor of them because they encourage huge parking lots, which are fine if we’re building outside the CBD but they’re suburban in scale and while great for tailgating, not great for fitting into the urban frabric.

Moving on, here’s a question for everyone, name 2 things you want to see in Raleigh sometime in the future. The first one can be in the next 10 years and the second one could be in the next 40 years.

I’ll go first,
1. In the next 10 years I want to see the completion of the Convention Center Cultural District.
2. In the next 40 years I want to see an increase in urban rental properties and an elimination of surface parking lots in DT.

SORRY I had to defend one of my favorite sports.

Regarding soccer, we all have our biases… laryea explained it well in his last post, but I do understand that the overall population doesn’t exactly support soccer and I will not say otherwise. However, there is enough interest, and Railhawks games have been attended well, overall. The question that has been asked many times before in urban forums is whether a pro football or pro basketball team would receive the attention and support of the Triangle fans. I have no answer to that, but having 3 college teams, which currently attract all the attention, could take away fans from a pro team. People cannot spend a lot of money on overpriced tickets and I am certain that the majority of the sports fans would stick with their favorite college team instead. I have nothing to back this claim, it’s just an opinion shared by many. Which is why Canes have done well thus far – relatively speaking. They do not compete with any other NC team for attention.

Back to the skyline discussion, a lot will depend on the location. Some initial discussions place a new arena not within downtown proper, but close by. After seeing the pathetic excuse of a vision for Union Station’s surrounding areas, I am not convinced that a new arena would truly encourage dense urban development, even within the downtown proper. Let alone encourage high-rises. There will be need for hotel space, no question about this, but how close can it be to the CBD? I have been a vocal – and very loud, at times – supporter of expanding downtown to the South, towards I-40. That area provides a great opportunity to build an arena, or a sports complex and then connect it with the CBD through a dense (and tall) district. This “district” is bounded by S.Saunders/McDowell Str, MLK Blvd, S. Wilmington Str and I-40. The area between Gilbert Ave, Fayetteville Str, S. Wilmington Str, I-40 and S. Saunders Str is simply golden and begs for re-development. Buildings between 10 and 20 floors can easily be built around the sports complex, creating an almost “midtown” feel. The only place that we cannot touch is the area occupied by Mt Hope Cemetery and Washington Elementary School. Walnut Terrace is supposed to be re-developed in a fashion similar to the former Halifax Court, but I do not know what the status of this project is, nor do I think that high-rises will be encouraged there. Still, it is a great opportunity that the city leaders should not miss. It would open up a huge window to shoot for the sky in several areas that today we consider transitional.

While you’re techincally right, this is a skyline-oriented website and we ‘should’ be talking about the skyline, there, well, isn’t anything happening on the development front. I just read yesterday that office vacancies in the Triangle are approaching 20% and residential isn’t any better, so it will be a while before anything happens. There is only so much conjecture we can do on the same three projects and the same 10 great spots to put a skyscraper. So, we’re having a fun discussion about sports and other Raleigh growth issues. However, if YOU have some big news about the skyline, why don’t you share it? Nobody on this site is going to turn down a chance to hear about new development.

Everyone else,

MLS is never going to be on par with the top European leagues, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be interest. MLS (aka, minor league soccer, hehe) is never going to compete with the Big Four, but a team could do well. Also, the Hurricanes are doing well because a lot of our population is either from up north, or their parents are from up north, but there are a lot of North Carolinians who have embraced them, and many that have been hockey fans for years but never had a local team. As for now, I’m glad for the support the city and state give the ‘Canes, so I would be wary of bringing anything into such a small market that would compete. I don’t want Raleigh to become like Atlanta sports fans.

That said, I still don’t think MLS would sell in Raleigh, and Raleigh could not sell themselves to MLS if they tried. Though I seem to remember thousands of NC State fans showing up loud at this year’s ACC Championship game at WakeMed Park…who knows, anything is possible. And, realistically speaking, an average attendance of just 15-20k would be great for MLS standards.

Saying there are a “large number” of Americans who like soccer is somewhat misleading for a pair of reasons. First, with a population of 300 million (and growing) there are a “large number” of people who watch professional bull riding and bowling, the World Series of Poker, etc. And, secondly, most, if not all, of the soccer fans I know follow UEFA, as the best players in the world, even the best American players, go to Europe, as David Beckham illustrated when he almost immediately regretted the move to LA and tries to play in Spain as much as possible.
That being said, I have no problem with attracting an MLS team, but if the city is going to spend money, I’d want there to be a justified support base. That’s why I would be opposed to pushing for an MLB team at the moment, we’re just too small. Soccer requires a lot fewer people, if a team wants to move here, I’d be an idiot to oppose that, but, with most stadiums, the team would probably want a publically-funded stadium, and that would require serious scrutiny. But, like I said, if an MLS team does a study and the interest is there, buidling a stadium would enhance our city and our culture, and I’d fully support it.

Laryea,

I don’t think it’s really that easy to say ‘we’re big enough’ because statstically, we really aren’t. I’d previously mentioned the study done by a businss journal that said Raleigh was just big enough for the Hurricanes. That study did not include the Durham MSA, which would add around 600,000 people to the number, which, in reality, is probably big enough for an MLS team, but 1.7 million is not big enough for two of the four major sports leagues. You said Charlotte isn’t much bigger, but if you use the same metric (combined statistical area) which we use to include Durham-CH in our measure of the Triangle, then Charlotte, or Metrolina, comes out with 2.3 million, (by comparison, Boston goes from 5 million to nearly 8 million, when performing the same metric switch). So, to be more accurate, we’re barely bigger than the Triad (1.5 million) and still around 600,000 people smaller than Metrolina.

The Triangle should have around 1.6 or 1.7 million people, so it’s still not in the same category as a Portland, which is the most likely destination, IMO, for an expansion team. The reason Raleigh can’t have a AAA team is because Durham is too small to support the Bulls alone, and two AAA teams would be a tough sell. The Mudcats are here and cheap, and the talent level isn’t fantastic, but I’m not sure how many people go to minor league games for the level of play, most people go to sit in the evening sun, drink beer, eat hotdogs or chicken strips (or fried Catfish) and be with their friends/family. My main point is that a minor league stadium in DT Raleigh would, IMO, enhance the streetscape and add to the culture and flair of the city. The Mudcats are Raleigh’s minor league team, even though they’re out in Zebulon, Raleigh is their major home. It’s not really a question of adding a minor league team to Raleigh, it’s a quesion of moving the current team to a better spot (and hopefully reusing the materials they used to put of Five County on a new facility).

Ernest,
Soccer is unbelievably boring to Americans in general, in the same way other sports are boring to other people, because we, for the most part, like the sports we grew up with. I grew up watching American football and baseball, I associate both sports with family members and fond memories and I understand those two sports the most. Growing up in Europe, you probably have the same association with European football.

If baseball is the only way to bring another pro team to Raleigh, then bring it on.

Just for me, I’d much rather see the Mudcats move downtown than the Hurricanes, since their stadium is in the middle of nowhere.

On the other hand, I could not agree more with you regarding the foot traffic and the benefits for most downtown businesses. We can only begin to imagine the impact once DT Raleigh is ready for an arena. I am not sure why the city leaders have not yet made some annexation a priority. DT Raleigh can add significant land that will be prime for re-development. Sure, there are currently residents near South Fayetteville Str, but with careful planning, we can see a North Hills East like development, with a series of high-rises and mid-rises near the new arena.

Let me stop here… You have already read my comments on that topic

In theory, any sports venue would help downtown. However, I would wait until a solid performer gets interested. In our case, Carolina Hurricanes is a great candidate and I would add the Railhawks, as well. The problem is that downtown needs to be expanded to the South, first, bringing it closer to I-40. Then, a new arena built there – plenty of room for such venue – would create additional momentum and the new for re-development. Of course, this is only my opinion, but I am not conviced that a downtown arena at this moment would do as much as we would love to see. Maybe in 5-10 years from now.

I think the city is moving in the right direction. For me, I hope in four/five years, when I get out of school, there will be a new apartment building or two where I can rent for a few years, before moving into a condo.

I know I sound like a broken record, but only people who can afford the existing condos can pay, through their taxes, for the amenities we want to see. There is plenty of room for rental units, but we need to establish a larger population in the core of the city. Eventually, there will be room for new apartments. The two 5-story buildings planned for the North End (Seaboard Apartments) will address the need for rental units, but I am afraid the developers are still having a tough time getting financing.

Things picked up for Uptown Charlotte very fast after Gateway Village and Hearst Tower were completed, if we like to find out the “when” things happened. Lynx was the icing on the cake, if you ask me, and a very important component, but even without it Uptown was well on its way up and will continue in the years to come. Could Raleigh use the Queen City as a model, or simply get inspired? Sure it can. Just as much as we can learn from Asheville, Wilmington and Greensboro. Not everything these cities do can be duplicated here, but there are patterns we can follow and create our own success stories. We already have, but we are still taking the first steps when it comes to big things.

Also, I would disagree about Raleigh being slow to get things built. Every city has projects that move in slower speeds, or projects that get scaled down significantly from the original designs. It happens all the time in every major city. Ours simply needs a few things right now and it drives us insane to see that these amenities and features don’t come fast enough. Steve’s suggestion to take a “wait and see” approach is very healthy, IMO.

I think the problem is that city growth is a positive feedback loop. That means, companies move certain places because they want to be there, reasons to move somewhere include safety, schools, access to services, access to important client companies (most financial firms are in New York because most of their clients, as well as the New York Fed and the NYSE, are already there), as well as quality of life factors like entertainment, transit and cultural facilities. The problem is, entertainment venues (like my desired baseball stadium) need population to support them, and people move to places that have entertainment, etc. Raleigh is growing not because of anything the city council did, it’s growing because of the weather, the low taxes (local and state), the low crime, good public schools, availability of jobs and low cost of living, for the most part those things are out of the control of the city.

The city does have the Comprehensive Plan and I think it’s a pretty good plan. There are some things I’m skeptical of (for example, it says taller buildings should be concentrated on Hillsborough, New Bern and Fayetteville, but I’m not sure how much of the first two are going to be used for high rise development) and I’m not sure if they’re really going to follow through on a lot of what they’re saying. The abstract ideas, increasing density, improving pedestrian areas, expanding the downtown, improving transit, etc. are all nice and good, but they really don’t mean anything, since they’re just concepts.

Also, a full time city council is still going to be a political animal. If voters are upset or complain about something, politicians will respond by doing what’s good to get reelected, rather than what they think is best for the city.

As far as Raleigh having a full-time council, the only problem is that Raleigh is an excessively small place. Atlanta, which is certainly a major city, has a plethora of things that Raleigh doesn’t have to worry about. For example, we don’t have to worry about organizing victory parades for the Braves or making sure the MARTA is running smoothly (I realize that the city council in Atlanta isn’t the only group which has imput on those matters, but they still have to approve regulations and events, etc.). Also, Atlanta has a considerably more office space (though it only has roughly 25% more people in the city proper, it undoubtedly has several times as much office space as we do, as most of the people in the Atlanta metro region work in Atlanta, while a lot of people in Raleigh work in RTP) and a much higher tax income. My point is, Atlanta, and the other cities you mentioned, have more obligations and more money to work with, and can more easily justify paying a full-time council. Would a full-time council be good for the city? Perhaps when the economy recovers fully and the city starts exploding again, but even then, we’d have to weigh the benefits of having a full-time (and thus, higher paid) city council, with the costs.

Furthermore, while we all like to gripe on here, I think we should be happy with some of what’s going on. The city has added several high rise developments, will add more when growth starts again, is expanding the Natural Science Museum (my favorite place in Raleigh) and is making an attempt to improve the transit system and the pedestrian experience. We all want things done yesterday, I’d certainly like to see Hillsborough full of towers and a magnificent train station and a park on the Dix property (or parks on the Dix property) and an elimination of parking lots, expansion of the skyline east, revitalization of blighted communities, expansion of downtown south of the performing arts center, a downtown minor league baseball stadium, some real outside/street side eating establishments, green skyscrapers, an Art Deco tower, an iconic 700+ foot building, a host of Fortune 500 companies, a Natural History Museum, air rights over train tracks, a downtown library, downtown grocery stores, major retail expansion, affordable apartments, sleek and stylish office towers, and a distinct district of non-stop streetwalls that extend to all edges of downtown and push north on Capital Blvd and west on Hillsborough, to name a few things. But, we aren’t going to get all of this in a day and we might never get it. I’m not really sure why I just named all those things, but I think it’s a good list.

Point is, Rome wasn’t built in a day and at least our city councilmen aren’t snorting cocaine or hiring prostitutes, so, sure there are things we can do better, but we still have it pretty good.

laryea, you said it right, my friend… A full-time city council would probably do a lot more for us. This group of city leaders is not exactly ready for prime time, and I don’t mean to belittle their work, regardless of whether I agree with them, or not. Some of them mean well, while others have their eyes set on their future endeavors and political aspirations. This is not a healthy way to run this city. I am not even sure the major local businesses actually trust the city leaders, which is why we do not see as many of them participating in the evolution. Sure, you have big businesses that contribute money, or even offer free advice to the city, but do we have an active business community that tries to help in getting major corporations to relocate downtown? Not that I know of, anyway.

Like you said, the nightlife department is very strong, I think. If we didn’t have several gaps between various districts it would have been far more impressive, but even as is we can be proud of our nightlife. It should be evident to those who venture out often, even if they just walk/drive around. I have seen a few slow nights, but most evenings are busy. A far cry from the days when DT Raleigh was a ghost town. Now, if we can get a few skyscrapers…

Also, I feel like if Charter goes up, the area around it (basically every block that touches it, except the block just north of it on FS, is empty) MIGHT see some action.

I don’t want to be unfair to the people who put together the proposal, which is otherwise an excellent piece of publication, but the very thought of these people suggesting 4-12 story buildings scares the crap out of me. They should move to Carrboro, not get involved with Raleigh. Of course, we can only hope that people with vision and desire to work in urban planning could some day take over, but I am afraid a lot of damage will be done by then. In a way, this financial crisis may benefit us by slowing down the “decay” of our urban fabric. Not developing is much better than developing small, especially in Raleigh’s case. I do not envy Houston’s liberal zoning, but I don’t want a group of small thinking individuals to ruin my city’s chances.

Nothing is lost, though. We can influence by sending emails and making phone calls to the city council and Mitch Silver (Director of Raleigh’s Urban Planning Dept). Let them know that we support the Union Station vision, but we need to think ahead. Make it grand, make it inspiring, make it functional and STOP putting limits in an area that shouldn’t have limits. It’s downtown proper, fro crying out loud!!!

Let me add a little more fear concerning our skyline. The wizards who decided to put together the report on the Union Station project (the proposed multi-modal transit center) are trying to kill many of our hopes for skyline boosting. Their recommendations to buildings up to 4, 8 and 12 stories maximum (depending on the location) is absolutely insane!!! Their restrictions would kill projects like One Glenwood, Winston Tower and any other similar proposals before they are even officially presented to the city. I understand the transition factor, but the people behind this project are losing it, I think. Some of their points are valid, but most of the restrictions MUST be lifted.

Hopefully, the city council will not approve the height restrictions, but they scare me sometimes

Much of the cheering in Raleigh was the result of several major proposals, a few years ago. Without a doubt, half of them are enough to help Raleigh surpass Winston-Salem. Unfortunately, without The Hillsborough and Lafayette, it becomes harder, as we’ll have to wait before the rest of the projects come online. As the city discusses the ease on restrictions regarding the timelines for projects to complete – the ones proposed for city-owned sites, I assume – it will become even more difficult to see some of the key proposals materialize soon (i.e. Charter Square). Until The Edison gets built, we will struggle to remove some of the perceptions regarding our skyline. Until then, I would give Winston-Salem an extra point.

Let me take this a step further. Let’s talk about Buen Retiro Park, in Madrid. A 350-acre park that is simply the dream of every big city resident. Rich in destinations, plenty of space for people to walk around and great features, like the Monument to Alfonso XII with the beautiful pond on the front of the statue. I still remember sitting in one of the park’s benches, reading “The Truth Behind Men in Black” by Jenny Randles Great venue, in the middle of a world class city (Madrid, Spain), near a world class museum (Prado). Believe me, those 350 acres were more than enough to keep people interested. If done right, 100 acres of urban development and 200 acres of park space would perform miracles. You can very easily place a small zoo in 100 acres and use the rest for a botanical garden and a few other uses. The problem is: how do we subdivide the park, so nobody has problems. Who gets the view of the skyline?

The whole argument about the prices was that the immediate effect would be to drive the less fortunate out. Any sale that doesn’t include redevelopment of parts of Dorothea Dix would not help the mentally ill. Nobody would pay top dollar values for space that cannot produce some profits. The city of Raleigh and those who favor a park would never make it work, period. My suggestion, and I know there are many good ideas out there, is to develop 100 acres into a dense urban environment, with a few neighborhood squares (i.e. DT Savannah, GA) and have a small, special, non-expiring property tax that would go into an account that will benefit the mentally ill. That way, we can honor the memory of Dorothea Dix and show appreciation for her gesture.

This may bring a smile, although it would not happen for a long time, but there is serious interest for the Prison campus. I have seen recommendations that include several buildings, as high as 38 floors. Proximity to Pullen Park and [if developed] Dorothea Dix would make a huge difference. I would not hold my breath, but it is always refreshing to see that some people, outside Raleigh, show interest.

I should probably point out that my hope to develop the Dix property is probably a pie in the sky idea. My long term vision would be to move the Prison (why it’s so close to downtown is beyond me) and eventually (when the state’s population is large enough) turn part of it into a zoo. I love zoos and it makes no sense to me that NC has one (very nice) zoo that’s in the middle of nowhere (I realize when it was made the land was and is cheap and the cities in NC were all small). I also had a vision for an amphitheater, a nice boat pond (like the one near the Lewis Caroll statue) and a lake, as well as a natural history museum (the NC Museum of Natural Sciences is great but could be a lot better, I won’t get into that here). Also, baseball and soccer fields downtown. All this being said, I realize this wouldn’t necessarily take 300 acres, but a zoo alone could easily be 100 acres (which is very small for a zoo). I realize also that most people don’t share my enthusiasm for zoos and it’s probably not a viable endeavor. The good thing about Raleigh is that we have Umstead Park. I should point out that tree cover and a park aren’t the same thing. Having trees everywhere on sidewalks isn’t like having a place next to a nice pond to sit and sunbathe or flowers to walk through. Perhaps during our lifetimes (though I plan on being old so if I make it to 100 it’ll be 2089) Raleigh may stay smallish, but I think the future Raleigh will continue to grow to enormous proportions. I don’t want to end up like so many other cities (Vegas, Phoenix, etc) that don’t have many parks and as you’ve pointed out there isn’t much chance of making much of downtown into parks. I also realize that a central park would drive up property values (that was something I considered a positive, which would, at least in my dream world, partially go to help the mentally ill).

There is another point, which I care less about – to be honest – but it is another valid argument to consider. What will a central park do the nearby properties? Some people spoke extensively about the properties increasing in value, thus the tax base. Not everyone is willing to accept that and many will be “forced” to seek a more affordable place. Of course, they may be able to make something out of selling their homes, but that assumes they will be able to sell their properties. Again, this doesn’t bother me, personally, but it is something to consider. Now, urban development makes a lot of sense, particularly if done properly. To start with, there is no single plan that takes over the entire Dorothea Dix property and converts it into an urban community. Hell, developers can’t even get things right when they have an empty area to worth with (i.e. Blount Street Commons). Some urban development, if done with respect to its surroundings, could help fund through its tax base the undeveloped portion, thus bringing some quality features (i.e. an aquarium, small museums) and increase police presence, a VERY important factor.

Last, but not least, I am not for butchering what we have left in terms of open space, but Raleigh isn’t NYC. There will always be a lot of areas covered with green. I’d much rather see 300 acres divided in 2-3 community parks around the city than one large park that is hard to maintain and keep safe. Not to mention, a park that brings no funds to the mentally ill, for whom this park was created, to begin with.

Quite honestly, I doubt that the newly proposed project will be shut down. For one, the NIMBYs are not directly affected – not that they care about distance – by any “excessive” heights. There are already buildings around 4 stories over there. Plus, this project will be done in phases, which will allow the developer to build the townhomes before anything else. When the project is under way, it will be hard to shut it down. But then again, I can expect anything to happen from the usual suspects

Regarding the “small town mentality”, I do not want to be fair to our city leaders. They can’t possibly create a big city vision when Raleigh is not even close to being a big city. In my opinion, they want to accomplish too many small things – important things, I believe – but they do not seem to be going aggressively after larger corporations with incentives that will benefit Raleigh in the long run. Maybe some work is done in the background, but so far I have not seen anything of substance. Until we start looking into bringing larger corporations to DT Raleigh, I would be skeptic to call our leaders visionaries, but I cannot blame them for what is wrong with our center. Good work has been done since the early 90′s, but we just need to dream a little bigger.

Make the Dorthea Dix land into a recreation park? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Anyway, a positive sign, but much like with any other project these days, I have learned to reserve the cheering until it is built. I do hope to see the strengthening of the Hillsborough Str corridor and its transformation into an ultra-urban “district”. There is already a certain degree of urbanity in that area and proximity to downtown can make any project like Hillsborough & Morgan a desirable option for urban living. Can’t wait to see/hear more about it.

On a side note, the developer seems to own/manage the other half of the block where One Glenwood is envisioned to go. There were plans for redevelopment, but didn’t work out. I wonder how long will it take them before they build something taller on that parcel. If One Glenwood gets built as envisioned, this developer can shoot for something at least 20-30 stories. Let me stop here before the day-dreaming begins

Thanks.

Now, if anyone purchased, or plans to purchase the plans and the parcel, along with the air rights, and revised the tower, it is yet to become public news. The original developer simply didn’t have the money to proceed, although most of us back then thought otherwise. I wish it had happened

Lee L, one thing I have to say about my theory is that the tower will not have as much depth as it appears. Morning Times, Raleigh Times and the rest of the buildings on that part of the block are there to stay. It has to be a “leaner” building, but we all know how renderings are sometimes deceptive.

aperson, the Powerhouse Plaza is one of the many projects that wait for the “better days”. It is not cancelled, and I doubt it will be, but until we see the cranes on that site we can safely call it “stalled”. They definitely need 1-2 major tenants before they break ground.

there’s dozens of renderings of things for Raleigh that never got build tho, so i’m not holding my breath. even the safety center, which was practically a done deal, is now up in the air.

It is hard to tell from the rendering, but I thought maybe the road might be acces for parking or something, but you are right, it could be an actual street the way the rendering is done.

Lee L, the location of the Mechanics & Farmers Bank (with the lot) was among my first guesses, but I dismissed it because the rendering shows a road between the buildings, which is why I figured that it may be the SE corner of Hargett and Fayetteville Streets. The only thing that I am almost confident about is that the mid-rise shown is the Masonic Building, where the Urban Design Center is located. That would have been AWESOME, but without information to support my theory, it is pointless to continue guessing. Neither the designer, nor the architect answered to my emails

I can tell you firsthand that many many large buildings have been rendered for Raleigh over the years and the drawings are sitting in various drawers in architects offices. Now with the web, the drawers are sometimes a little more public.

Also, looking at the rendering, it seems to be mostly residential. The top section is only deep enough for condos on each side IMO.

I firmly believe that this is an unknown project that will not be officially presented for a while, until the economy returns to normal. Putting together renderings – there are more images of this building in the website – is not a cheap task. A developer would not put so much money unless he knew that there is a good chance it will happen. Based on my sources, and I have no reason to doubt these people, there is a lot of interest in DT Raleigh, both from local and national developers. There is interest from corporations who are looking to relocate, but this is the kind of news that almost never finds its way to the public. Serious investors, whether to develop or relocate their businesses, take a very slow approach, and don’t want much publicity until they get close to the final decision.

Regarding this mystery project, it doesn’t make sense to create any additional enthusiasm right now. However, it answers a question that many here have raised, either directly or indirectly: Is there interest in building tall buildings in DT Raleigh? Indeed there is, although I would not hold my breath for the 700ft+ skyscrapers we wish to see right away. Realistically, it will happen some time during our life, but let’s stick with what our market can handle first.

laryea, sorry for causing too much excitement… Are you going to be fine? Should we take you to the hospital? Don’t have any heart attacks before you see The Edison, One Glenwood and this mystery project get built, PLEASE

Leaving politics aside, I recently visited from Doha, Qatar, for a few days and one only need look at what has been accomplished there in little more that a decade to see how vision and purpose can go a long way.

The thing that bothers me the most about DTR is that it feels like no one lives there. I visited the city often, but always left feeling as if it were akin to a trip to a mall. Not unpleasant, but a tad unfulfilling. There are no theatres, no grocery stores, no large parks, no transit, hardly even a cab to be found. Most of the restaraunts have no real feeling to them. They could be hatched anywhere, and are quickly forgotten. That being said, I miss it terribly.

Thanks again Matt.

Yes, that is the one, although I was trying to avoid posting the link because the architects may end up removing it if the word gets out, like it happened with One Glenwood. Now, let the game of speculations begin

Ben(14), I like the idea of a movie theater downtown, but I have reservations concerning the additional destinations it may bring. Theoretically, it could work well, but it needs to be in an environment like North Hills, where everything is “right there”. I am wondering if something like Raleighwood could work. Enjoy a meal while watching a movie

This seems to match your description of “The crown looks like the basis of the BofA tower’s crown, in Charlotte, sending a thick beam of light to the sky.” Is this the tower you speak of? If not, do you have any idea what this is?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://capprenderings.com/images/raleigh_mixed_use_rendering_w.jpg&imgrefurl=http://capprenderings.com/highrisemixeduse.html&usg=__D29zwsFSNaNqwJ0Uazesoab0tFU=&h=800&w=491&sz=168&hl=en&start=6&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=XYo5h92Vg6k7MM:&tbnh=143&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Draleigh%2Brendering%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26um%3D1

Imagine how Matt’s photo, titled “Clarion Hotel, Quorum Center, West at North” would look if The Hillsborough was built. Add the Powerhouse Plaza and you can see a cute little dense skyline, even though the Powerhouse Plaza would not have been visible from that angle.

What I would like to see for Raleigh is additional density downtown. I think it is often too easy to obsess about going vertical and trying to catch Charlotte in the skyscraper game. Yes, some taller buildings in the 40-50 floor range would be very nice, but every time I see our skyline I wish that it had some additional broadness to it – particularly to the north and west. I believe this will come in due time, hopefully sooner as we emerge from the credit crunch. Raleigh is fortunate enough to be one of the few cities that will be in a strong position to come out of the recession sooner than most and speed forward rapidly. But I think before everyone all at once starts clamoring for those 600 foot tall towers we’d all love to see, at the same time I’d appreciate some added depth and width to the overall look of the skyline.

Regarding the location, I am almost totally clueless… The more I look at it, the more it appears to be at the SE corner of Fayetteville Str and Hargett Str, across from CVS, but the rendering shows a rather wide front that takes up almost half the block. The only clue that I have is a mid-rise that looks like the Masonic Building (where Urban Design Center is currently located), but in the rendering it looks like they added a couple of floors. There is no other building that fits the image of what I see in the rendering. It has a great urban form, with set-backs in the rear side and the top 6 floors appear to be residential condominiums. The crown looks like the basis of the BofA tower’s crown, in Charlotte, sending a thick beam of light to the sky. Overall, a very elegant design. Evidently, the architect and designer (especially the latter) seem to have a ton of experience in modern elegant high-rises. Let’s hope the developer is someone with tons of money, although it would be hard to break ground without 1-2 major tenants.

As a resident of North Raleigh, I would hate to see pro- or anti- any place in Raleigh. We need city leaders who can see the city as a whole, identify its needs and present solutions that do not lack balance. We do not need pro-downtown leaders. We need pro-Raleigh leaders, who can create a good growth plan and bring the city what it needs the most. We are currently trying to improve many areas, but to say that Downtown isn’t getting more than its fair share would be totally unfair and inaccurate. If things happen at North Hills and Brier Creek it is because there are still some developers who can deliver, not because city leaders have lifted a finger to help. The same cannot be said about downtown. Not to mention that people support downtown entertainment venues. Bring some unique shopping (i.e. Babies-R-Us, A Southern Season, CompUSA) and you will see how things will change.

Something related to our skyline. Today, I discovered a project that looks like it will be located downtown. If I counted correctly, it looks like a 35+ story mixed-use high-rise, but what I loved the most is the architecture. One of the best this state can get and a huge step forward for Raleigh. For the moment, I only know the architect and the graphic designer, but I am trying to find additional information. Based on the input, I may only confirm that this is not a pie in the sky, or I will provide more info. Assuming they will bother answering…

Sorry if I sound like I am trying to tell you how to feel. In fact, the last thing I want to do is just that. I have had my share of disappointment, but that is only because I have been following the recent evolution of our downtown long enough to expect more. There are people out there who feel ecstatic with the changes and couldn’t care less about skylines. We are not on the same page with them, but we should at least be happy about something.

Now, going back to the photos and looking at the North Hills images: Anybody cares to bet how long it will be before we see a skyline develop there? The current zoning allows for up to 365ft/35 floors, without any additional permits. Considering the height in feet, the maximum floor count is for residential high-rises. My guess is that something around 25 floors would be the maximum allowed for office buildings, according to the current zoning.

Im sure we will have some low to midrise buildings, that do nothing to inspire us or make our city more attractive, constructed on the many parking lots we have wasting space now. Im also positive that we will continue to replace failed clubs, bars and resturaunts with more of the same and maybe eventually realize that what DTR just cant sustain these places until we do something drastic to really get people living in and around downtown.

The excitement and people need to be there all year long, not just at RWO’s and parade time. I walk around regularly and take my own pictures that never seem to be as nice as Matt’s and leave dissapointed there aren’t more people enjoying DTR

…the timing of the credit crisis and the state of the economy came at a very bad time for making this city a wonderful place… it’s a shame.

With that having been said, there is no reason to give up on DT Raleigh. There are cities and developers that will suffer the consequences of their arrogance and image-building tendencies. It will take a VERY long time for them to recover, while Raleigh will be getting, although slowly, a good number of high-rise developments. This is a very conservative prediction and contains none of my previous enthusiastic attitude. Things will happen in a fashion similar to Portland, OR. You don’t see many tall buildings – for a city the size of Austin and Charlotte, but you see a great urban fabric that most cities the same size with Portland would envy.

When the dust settles in Raleigh, and it will happen quicker than most other cities, Matt will capture more interesting scenes and new angles. Until then, I encourage you not to give up hope. After all, we are gathered here to share our dreams and concerns, thus getting them out of our system… You are not alone, my friend

I’m glad that Bloomsbury Estates managed to see completion, but the result is not overly pleasing. I would hope in the future we’ll see additional mid-rises in that area so that it does not stick out by itself so much – perhaps immediately south and east. I’d love to see the property by the Boylan Bridge redeveloped (but not in a way that blocks the great view).

As DTR continues to evolve and grow, my mind frequently wanders to East Raleigh and the Saunders Street and Wilmington Street corridors. I don’t think there is much argument that this is not one of Raleigh’s best areas, but I do believe there is quite a bit a value in having what could be a strong residential neighborhood with its proximity to downtown. I still hope that planners will eventually wake up and see that a renewed and revitalized southside corridor is a key part of moving Raleigh’s downtown progress forward.

Sorry for rambling – just sharing some various thoughts out loud. Matt’s photos really are worth a thousand words, and everytime I contemplate each of these new series, it’s like each photo tells an intriguing story. I’m sure many of you feel the same!

Also, there is Creedmoor Tower, which not many people speak of. So far, we are talking about a 15-story mixed-use building that will include a parking deck, offices and hotel space. It is envisioned to replace the 2-story building that faces Creedmoor Road, on the same section with Soleil Center. That is a gorgeous contemporary design and I hope to see at least that high-rise breaking ground. I have seen updated renderings, which is a good sign, but nothing in terms of deadlines. I assume they are also waiting for the economy to turn and the banks to start loaning again…

Have you EVER disappointed us? I doubt there is a person who can answer “yes” to this question. Great views, good clarity, and I love how you took advantage of your location to show us North Hills, Durham/RDU and Glenwood South.

laryea brought up an interesting observation. As usual, I am so inspired by these photos that I have to offer my 2 cents. There are not that many lots the developers can put their hands on. Either they are owned by the State Government – definitely a force that pushes our downtown backwards when it comes to urban development (and high-rises), or they are consisted by pieces owned by several landlords. It would be too costly and time consuming if a developer tried to assemble land for a high-rise. This is one of the big problems/challenges that every developer has to overcome. Underdeveloped parcels is another problem (i.e. Shaw University, Warehouse District).

It is very inspiring to see the small, yet growing skyline of North Hills. The Eastern section is definitely going to make a difference, especially if we see the envisioned high-rises rise above CAPTRUST Tower, as it has been planned for at least a few of them. It may sound like a competition with DT Raleigh, but it is a healthy competition, in my book. In this series, we also get a good idea of how big Sites 2 and 3 are. They can easily host 30+ story buildings, but even a couple of well-designed towers would do miracles. A twin project with two towers similar to Burj Al Arab (Dubai) would be ideal, in my opinion. The “curved” sides can point to the South, or one of them to the East and the other to the West.

Anyway, many thanks for sharing these great images, Matt. Your work is much appreciated.